[Reader-list] Fwd: Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics.

Mon Apr 20 14:53:14 IST 2009

Dear Rajen,

>"caste is again by vocation of the individual, not by birth, but by his work."

While I can agree with the spirit of your post here,  unfortunately,I
would still object to your contention quoted above. This is the single
biggest mendacity people ever could propagate about caste. At its best
, a wishful thought and at the worst a typical pattern of denial of
one of the most fundamental contradictions in society.
This is going back to Pre-Ambedkarite understanding of caste and thus
transpires to end up with a "pre- Constitutional" notion about
"nation" sans many of its modern attributes of inclusiveness and
citizenship.

Regards,
Venu.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rajen Uppinangadi <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in the jail, detention of
vendetta politics.
To: Venugopalan K M <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>

Hi,

  Venu,

     you have raised very fundamental question in your post, about the
system of governance as you are well aware, that system is derived
from the constitution which we gave to ourselves and rule of laws is
the system of which we are all part and parcel, the system has good ,
bad and the ugly sides whether you and me like it or not, there are
rules and rules are broken, bent, subverted whether we like it or not,
deviant individuals are those in the system who break, bend, subvert
the system of rule of laws and governance in this process becomes a
sufferer. Thus discriminated individual has genuine grouse against
such governance  irrespective of being theist, atheist, or of any
faith, faith is for personal domain, not for governance, and caste is
again by vocation of the individual, not by birth, but by his work. In
the present context, brith does not determine the vocation and
opportunities, education and skills are for all to have better life
and future under good governance.

 As to my dismay for conversion is for the tool it has become in the
hands of clergies to explot the already exploited, as you rightly
said, the caste discrimination continues after conversions,  temporary
relief from poverty and instead if the governance gives opportunity to
earn the decent living, get the skills and education for decent
livelihood, the faith has no role except at home to pray as one
wants., or does not want.!

Regards,

Rajen.

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Venugopalan K M <kmvenuannur at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"..What the system of governance should have been done is done by the deviant individuals of the society from different faiths, which is very violation of our constitution..."
>
> 1. Where do you get "the system of governance" ?
>
> 2. Why do you suggest that deviant  individuals of the society from
> different faiths should not have their say by legal and constitutional
> means ?
>
> 3. What are the features of their 'deviance' that you find so bad in
> them, to disqualify them?
> Having allegiance to Christianity, Islam, or Marxism, or  simply to
> agnosticism or atheism?
>
> 4. Why so much of hue and cry on  proselytizing , while it is a
> perfectly constitutional activity?
> Even if you argue  that poor including dalits and adivasis  in such
> cases are primarily driven by material incentives like a semblance of
> dignity in social life(which they are doubtful of getting in most
> cases) or even money itself, rather than spiritual concerns, your
> violent campaigns against proselytizing would not be justified.
>
> As a post script, I would like to add that I have no special love for
> Malayali people.,,On the contrary, I'd  love to talk more about my
> less fortunate compatriots who live in constant fear of hordes taking
> over the streets to cure the 'deviants' and to protect their 'nation'.
> Keralites are a people comprising Ezhavas, Mujahid Muslims, Nairs,
> Sunni Muslims,Jama-ati Muslims,Nairs,Ravuthers ,Nambiars, Vellalas,
> Menons, Pulayas,Vannans,Parayas,Nampoothiris, Kurichyas,
> Pisharadis,Kurumas, Brahmans,Tamil Brahmans, Chettis , Roman
> Catholics, Protestants, Christians, Nadars Hindu and Christian, Latin
> Catholics an Sunnis and Jamaatis and lots of such varying
> identities.(You can of course, re-group them into four categories
> depending on their accessibility or non accessibility to reservations-
> FCs, OBCs, STs and ,SCs).We live here with lesser threats of bullying
> thanks to our democratic( you can say even left) tradition.
> Regards,
> Venu.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi
> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >      Venu,
> >
> >       thanks for the sermons about the thoughts that I expressed which are
> > true to best of my knowledge, you have your perceptions, I do not wish to
> > contradict your perceptions, as I know that you have special love for the
> > malyalis , but for me religion or faith is personal, and bad governance has
> > made things difficult for the citizens, be they, tribals, adivasis or
> > others, the good governance if it is in place, the faith remains where it
> > is, in private domain, a hungry stomach, neglected by the system of
> > governance, lack of opportunities for the neglected, make them go for alms
> > distributed in the name of the only saviour, thus increasing numerical
> > strength of the voters, thus very democratic rule is undermined as they vote
> > not for the govrnance but for the "help" given which should have come from
> > good governance, not from any faith or its propaganda.
> >
> >   As to violence, it is to be noted with regret that violence begets more of
> > it, whether in the name of faith or politics, and the goons who killed  a 82
> > year old swami were exactly doing that so that they could polarise the votes
> > in kandhamal, just as any other party in the game of garnering votes. When
> > Singur and Nandigram happened with rapes and killings, again it was the same
> > game of polarsing the votes by the athiest sections of the society, for
> > their plank of development on the dead bodies of poor tillers.The same is
> > the instance of Gujarath, that 59 bodies were burnt alive in a coach is sure
> > shot for more violence, and I do not justify violence from anyone as the
> > govrrnance has failed totally to act in time, thus giving rise , rather
> > outsourcing the delivery of justice to media and NGOs. What the system of
> > governance should have been done is done by the deviant individuals of the
> > society from different faiths, which is very violation of our constitution,
> > hope you think over these thoughts.
> >
> >    It is known fact that young generation is looking for jobs, and gainful
> > employments, bettering their life skills so that they can build a future
> > for themselvs and the next generation, but when reservation is based on
> > caste and faiths, instead of economic and need based criteria, we see the
> > lopsided development of few sections of society, discrimination in
> > governance becomes the order, thus the issues of frustrated individuals
> > becomes movements like naxalism, aggrieved working class becomes a trade
> > union, thus all reflect the lack of will to have good governance in society.
> >
> >  In democratic rule if discrimination is the order of the system, then the
> > elements of discrimination are faith, caste and region and religions. Thus
> > you can see the gaining power of clergies, in all faiths exhorting the
> > followers to vote to those whom they consider as deliverer of good, again
> > defeating the democracy.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rajen.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Venugopalan K M <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Mr Rajen, You seem to speak true to your conscience..but may I ask you
> >> what authority you have to speak 'on behalf ' of people who opt for
> >> Christianity or whatever religion, when it comes to tribals and
> >> adivasis?Do you propose to suggest that the advivasis and tribals are
> >> people without any right to exercise free wills? What kind of
> >> criticism is that when you allege that  nuns of kerala drive sensual
> >> pleasure besides monetary gains by engaging in proselytizing. What is
> >> your locus standi  here? If you truly respect the Constitution, please
> >> try to acknowledge that the nuns have their constitutional right to
> >> propagate their faith as well as the tribals and adivasis do have
> >> theirs to convert. But you simply do not have the right to stop by
> >> force,though you can express your displeasure against proselytizing.
> >> Instead, you would do better to ponder over why these poor people damn
> >> the 'Hindu'-linked  identity of untouchables ,panchamas, rakshasas,
> >> asuras, which only gives them perpetualized penury and susceptibility
> >> to horrendous forms of institutionalized atrocities.
> >> Lastly, what is that  you stand to loose,if at all these nuns do enjoy
> >> sensual pleasures? I'm very happy to see this kind of hate speech in
> >> your posts not because I like its content,but because it betrays one's
> >> true colours, and people can always see through it...!..
> >>  Still, you don't have any formal disagreement with the idea of human
> >> rights, freedom of conscience, democracy and such finer aspects of
> >> civility of mind..you would even object someone treating you as an
> >> apologist of Godse for that reason, and that's great about you, if I'm
> >> permitted to say. Perhaps that's the only reason why we talk to each
> >> other.
> >> But you seem to deny any issue of human rights existing there in
> >> Gujarat and you don't find a case of human rights violation there in
> >> Orissa, when christians are raped and killed for their alleged acts of
> >> proselytizing/conversion. Your idea of human rights is punctuated with
> >> sort of right to impunity and right to propagate hatred and violence
> >> against christians,muslims ,adivasis,dalits and women of each tribe
> >> including that of yours!
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >> Venu.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi
> >> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Dear All,
> >> >
> >> > It is amusing to see the human rights activists, that too senior ones
> >> > rushing to sabarmathi jail to see if the human rights are violated of
> >> > bomb
> >> > blasts accused, because they belong to a particular faith, and the
> >> > amusing
> >> > comments and counters in the list for another person who was detained in
> >> > NSA
> >> > for "alleged" remarks that he would be defender of another community
> >> > against
> >> > traitors of the nation, even self defence in case of attack and rape is
> >> > not
> >> > possible for the community if numerical strength is higher in society,
> >> > they
> >> > have to "tolerate" the insults.?
> >> >
> >> >  As to the human rights committee and its "senior" activists, it can be
> >> > seen
> >> > that one John Dayal, is the clergy of evangelists, rolling in foreign
> >> > funds
> >> > for "uplifting " of the poor souls in poor regions of India with priests
> >> > and
> >> > nuns of seminaries from Kerala who being unemployed, find the jobs of
> >> > god's
> >> > work quite pleasurable with lots of sensuous pleasure factored in.,
> >> > along
> >> > with good pay and incentives for harvesting the souls of tribals and
> >> > poor
> >> > pagans.
> >> >  As to accused in jails, who misbehave, who indulge in violence over
> >> > trivial matters because they have support of "activists" who are again
> >> > creation for vote bank politics is the real tragedy in democracy as
> >> > these
> >> > human right activists are more concerned of rights of inhumans in
> >> > society
> >> > than the rights of victims of their inhuman acts.
> >> >
> >> >  Democracy where sections get extra governance at the cost of
> >> > discrimination
> >> > to other sections, is not good governance. This extra governance is by
> >> > and
> >> > large due to the vote banks, because of the faith. Such a shame, and as
> >> > to
> >> > vasectomies, and varun,   Anupam has to remember that the coersion in
> >> > the
> >> > emergency days led to the defeat of the party and ballot answered the
> >> > brute
> >> > force in most humble and non violent manner.
> >> >
> >> > Also, if ones parents or father is deviant it does not necessarily
> >> > follow
> >> > that son is also deviant. To say that he will be defending his community
> >> > against barbaric acts of fanatics is not an issue that indian media
> >> > overhyped at the time of elections, and media has set the agenda for the
> >> > parties and hate is the media game for awards and rewards.That  a
> >> >  nation
> >> > with one billion people should hear and watch the discussion about an
> >> > "honest" prime minister and a prime minister in waiting talk of weak and
> >> > strong , which are again relative subjective terms , is national waste
> >> > of
> >> > energy, instead, if only these weak PM and strong PM in waiting used
> >> > their
> >> > energies to enlighten the voters with what would be issues of good
> >> > governance in the nation, it would greatly faciltate better
> >> > understanding of
> >> > what type of leadership the nation is going to get.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> >
> >> > Rajen.
> >> > _________________________________________
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> >>
> >> --
> >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
>
>
>
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