[Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ?

[Rajen Uppinangadi]

Hi,

   Venu,

     That is democracy at work, as you and me have our right to opinions,
perceptions and understanding different events according to our intellect,
but to condemn all other opinions and perceptions as any one "Label" is
fascist, undemocratic. You are entitled to your opinion, I respect it, try
to give my two pennies to get better understanding of the thoughts, but to
condemn everything as brahminical, that too in a land where matriarchal
traditions are strong even today, that is Kerala is down right amusing to
me.

  As to chastity of men and women in marriage, it is valid even today, if
one goes to courts and study the grounds for  divorce, may be in kingdoms
that, the proceedings of rule of kings, was different.?In traditional
families the honesty, integrity and good character of men and women do count
whatever the modernity may thrust in society.

  As to sri ramasena and many such band of hooligans, it is the will,
political will to implement the laws, rule of laws, that really matters. In
some areas, hooligans roam around the strike call, in many other areas, the
hooligans do the moral policing,bundh calls are enforced by coercion are all
wrong instances where will of the muscle rules not rule of laws.

   Again I do not blame this on "brahminical" thoughts " but on the greed of
the so called leaders who practically have no support of the masses, but
enforce their agendas on the individuals., by muscle and money power.

Regards,

Rajen.

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Venugopalan K M <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>wrote:

> I have no difficulty to accept your take here, as a wishful thinking;
> Nevertheless, I was  concerned with the way in which you presented the
> epic instance of ousting of Sita by Ram as a model of how the rulers
> respond to public opinion in 'positive' ways. In my reading it is far
> from the ideal way;
> further , I would say that Ram was terribly inhuman in having
> disguised his aspersions about Sita's chastity into a matter of
> 'public concern'! But, Brahmanism had always this kind of duping
> methods.This terrifying instance of putting Sita to a test by fire and
> finally banishing her to the forests, lives through the memories of
> generations of Hindus. The arguments justifying this on the ground of
> public opinion will only satisfy unquestioning devotees and not
> others; even many of his pious devotees had accepted this story only
> with a pinch of salt and thus we have different versions in Uthara
> Ramayanam   (the story of Lav - Kush,etc) .Whatever is this,
> patriarchy is still reigning and Sree Ram Senes are at large though
> not without opposition from ever larger sections of people challenging
> them.
> Thanks,
> Venu.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi
> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >  Venu,
> >
> >     it is hilarious when you say that I support Ramarajya, because it is
> > fallacious to say the least, in democracy that kings and kingdoms exist
> in
> > free India. To that matter when Vijayaraje scindhiya crowned herself with
> > titles of shriman and also her sister, she got ousted along with her
> > sycophants.Ms. Vijayaraje was only chief minister, and she wasted the
> public
> > money in aircrafts and palace offices and public opinion went against
> her,
> > that is the power of public opinion in democracy.
> >
> >   Public opinion is when something not acceptable to all public happens
> it
> > is protested in most peaceful of the means, like the elections after
> > emergency of Indira Priyadarshini. It has reflected in west Bengal in
> gram
> > panchayath elections in the two disturbed districts when CPM went out of
> the
> > way with bullets and rape to oblige the salim group and the Tatas with
> > industries, what can be done by system of governance in peaceful, ways
> was
> > tried to be done with force of committed goon cadres, thus another goon
> > brigade  of Mamatha had the chance to flex muscles again proving that
> > violence begets more of it.?
> >
> >    In democratic life, as citizen all that I expect is good governance
> > without discrimination based on caste, faith or regio or religion, and
> > gender.All citizens must get the benefit of good governance and thus
> > opportunities to educate, jobs and life skills to better life, that is
> good
> > governance. As to NDA rule and India shining, it was indeed India shining
> in
> > parts because of the good highways, but all inclusive growth was not
> > achieved and the contraxt was stark. But UPA, the governance was of
> > kickbacks, as prices rise because of this, economy was totally dismissive
> of
> > the poor citizens and the result will show the position of Congress, the
> > lead player in UPA, that dishonesty does not pay as dishonest methods
> were
> > used to be in power.
> >
> >    One thing is certain, with divided polity with caste parties and
> regional
> > satraps controlling vote banks trained by Congress, the shisyas have
> become
> > experts giving lessons to national parties in corruption and bad
> > governance.?Glue that held the coalition was to save the corrupt from
> > prosecution, thus with fractured mandate, again the corrupt will be in
> > bargaining positions to stay in power unless the public opinion is strong
> to
> > keep out the criminals in Parliament.When honest prime minister used
> > dishonest means to be honest, he has abetted the crime as well.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rajen.
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>  >"..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya
> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
> >> opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him
> >> take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was
> >> pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public
> >> opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media
> >> and other means for their agendas, is my perception".."
> >>
> >> But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just
> >> your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram.
> >> Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression  of
> >> "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman  is nothing
> >> different from its newer versions of  "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes!
> >>
> >>  While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even  by the standards of
> >> ancient monarchy  it is much more unacceptable to the standards of
> >> human rights  of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity
> >> perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of
> >> 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the
> >> chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse
> >> to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing
> >> her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to
> >> suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but
> >> projection of source of one's own ill feeling to  someone else,
> >> skulking away from taking up the  moral  responsibility. The kind of
> >> relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to
> >> deep trouble even otherwise.
> >>
> >> Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories
> >> about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence
> >> against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence
> >> of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many
> >> people call Brahmanism.  Whatever you call this, you are supporting
> >> this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills.
> >> The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe
> >> these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing.
> >> Regards,
> >> Venu
> >> .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> >     Venu;
> >> >
> >> >   Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic
> >> > society
> >> > like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is
> >> > absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino
> >> > bhavanthu,
> >> > in Vasudaiva kutumbakam.
> >> >
> >> >   While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated,
> denied
> >> > education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is more
> on
> >> > their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life encourages
> such
> >> > in
> >> > equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had the
> >> > place
> >> > in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have
> >> > happened
> >> > when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala.
> Shah
> >> > Bano
> >> > case would not have been the instance to talk about where livelihood
> was
> >> > denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has
> >> > exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which
> >> > shoots
> >> > down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not
> proclaim
> >> > fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With
> >> > changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way of
> life
> >> > from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja
> >> > Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern
> times
> >> > even
> >> > Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society
> treats
> >> > the
> >> > oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to come
> from
> >> > within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in Dowry
> >> > act,
> >> > and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman
> >> > catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and lavish
> >> > dory
> >> > angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with
> >> > substantially
> >> > dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was
> told
> >> > to
> >> > me by a bishop friend.
> >> >
> >> > So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of life,
> >> > hindu is
> >> > not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is hindu,
> as
> >> > brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was
> >> > kshatriya
> >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
> >> > opinion.
> >> > A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take the
> >> > harsh
> >> > step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the
> >> > Ashram.
> >> > Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they did
> ,
> >> > but
> >> > generate public opinion thru media and other means for their agendas,
> is
> >> > my
> >> > perception.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> >
> >> > Rajen.
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M <
> kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Dear Rajen,
> >> >>
> >> >> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one will
> >> >> stand
> >> >> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you were
> >> >> stating
> >> >> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the
> >> >> exceptionally
> >> >> institutionalized and ritualized  hate in the social and cultural
> life
> >> >> of
> >> >> India.
> >> >> This is sure to  raise lot of other questions: Why, for example
> after
> >> >> the
> >> >> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire
> people
> >> >> of a
> >> >> village participate in the act of parading
> naked,raping,(women),killing
> >> >> and
> >> >> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a dalit
> >> >> family
> >> >> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about one
> >> >> month?
> >> >> So , an understanding of  Brahmanism together with  Brahmanical ways
> of
> >> >> thinking,  not only does not talk of  Brahmans as persons but more as
> a
> >> >> collective and  typically  negative attitude. It is characterized by
> >> >> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste and
> >> >> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are automatically
> >> >> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen in
> >> >> every
> >> >> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not giving
> >> >> birth
> >> >> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc are
> >> >> viewed
> >> >> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely
> >> >> negative
> >> >> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to
> protect
> >> >> the
> >> >> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are generally
> >> >> what
> >> >> are considered as traits associated with Brahmanism.Unfortunately,
> >> >> majority
> >> >> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted to
> >> >> it;
> >> >> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been taught to
> >> >> them
> >> >> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey  without grumbles
> >> >> and
> >> >> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam guna
> >> >> karma
> >> >> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your past
> >> >> karma
> >> >> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is the
> >> >> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it
> >> >> correctly)
> >> >> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu
> scriptures
> >> >> and
> >> >> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of
> dalits
> >> >> as
> >> >> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to
> cover
> >> >> up
> >> >> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the upper
> >> >> caste
> >> >> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant factors
> >> >> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of
> Gita
> >> >> and
> >> >> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of
> >> >> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own
> >> >> notion..so are
> >> >> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses  to a greater or lesser degree in
> >> >> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of
> >> >> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to resist
> >> >> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority.
> >> >> Certainly,
> >> >> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant role
> >> >> in
> >> >> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet and
> the
> >> >> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to challenge
> this
> >> >> privilege of the upper caste elites in  significant ways.
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> Venu.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> Venu.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi
> >> >> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi,
> >> >>>
> >> >>>     Venu,
> >> >>>
> >> >>>     List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all
> with
> >> >>> undertones of "caste"  and is casted with caste as theme of hate, if
> >> >>> one
> >> >>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical
> >> >>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if
> >> >>> otherwise it
> >> >>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable   "caste", then
> >> >>> may be
> >> >>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above the
> >> >>> caste and
> >> >>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you
> start
> >> >>> with
> >> >>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who takes up
> >> >>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with the
> >> >>> issues,
> >> >>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, Gayathri,
> >> >>> is
> >> >>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are also
> are
> >> >>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but behaviour
> is
> >> >>> that
> >> >>> of worse than  anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his acts
> >> >>> and
> >> >>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr.
> Joshi,
> >> >>> who
> >> >>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind such
> >> >>> rituals,
> >> >>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give the
> >> >>> right to
> >> >>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that once
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed to
> go
> >> >>> for
> >> >>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days,
> >> >>> hazardous, it
> >> >>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey for
> >> >>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at
> hop,
> >> >>> skip
> >> >>> and jump distances from homes these days.?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in
> >> >>> Karnataka
> >> >>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so the
> >> >>> education
> >> >>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation,
> judge
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by
> >> >>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is not
> >> >>> what
> >> >>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in
> this
> >> >>> age of
> >> >>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and their
> >> >>> behaviour
> >> >>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, where
> >> >>> anchors
> >> >>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Regards,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Rajen.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
>