[Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page

Sat Apr 25 19:57:37 IST 2009

Dear Inder

This is without commenting on some other points mentioned by you on which I have a different take, though I found extremely interesting the reference to the 'ghaib' of Ghalib and "without going into the comparison" the mention of poetry and Quran and Mohammed.

This post is with specific reference to "Prophet Mohammad ......believed that the ink of scholars is precious than the blood of martyrs."

It would be great if Muslims believed in it and adopted this as a tag-line mated to the word Islam.

I was not familiar with this quote. For what little I could explore, there would be a problem in general acceptance of it's being authentic. But, I myself advocate that Muslims should stop being too bothered about the "unquestionable authencity" of Hadeeth and Rivayaat and take on board all that support the humanistic and ennobling "Spirit of Islam".

The problem with this quote is that it apparently finds itself formally recorded nearly 600 years after Mohammed's death whereas the first compilations of Hadeeth are recorded around 200 years after Mohammed's death. Even amongst those who recorded it, the trueness is judged as being 'weak'.
   http://infad.usim.edu.my/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=6630

It also seems to present a very narrow perspective of 'Shadadah', which troubles me because it's acceptance would reinforce that narrow interpretation of Shahadah of (blood of) Martyrs. But that can be dismissed as my limited understanding and knowledge.

Thank you for  mentioning this quote.

Incidentally this quote finds mention as being dear to the Abbasids who ruled over that period which is often called the "Golden Age of Islam" when those who were Muslims by faith made glorious contributions to the world of Sciences etc.

I repeat "It would be great if Muslims believed in it and adopted this as a tag-line mated to the word Islam."

Kshmendra

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page
To: "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 8:19 PM

Dear Javed,

It is true, both Hadith and Quran generate meaning when studied
together,  like it is difficult to understand Gita without listening
the entire epic of  Mahabarata,  (I am not a student of both, not even
remotely )

Here I think of the point when a mind arrives....  when the words are
uttered a little  differently than usual.  It is at that time , when
the mind actually believes, and it must be true, that there is a
hidden source to all this enigmatic outburst, which we call poetry.

 Aatey hain Gaib say yeh mazameen khayan mein, Ghalib Sareer-nama
Nawa-ai Sarosh hai ( These verses , full of content are coming to me
from unknown sources, and, he almost reminds himself, ie.Ghalib, that
the sound which the hallow reed on the paper is making while writing
these verses is in fact the angel, singing. )

Well, without going into the comparison, between Prophet Mohamad and
Ghalib, I believe that there is a strange critical awareness in the
mind too,  that it is the mind itself which is composing these verses,
 and that is why the Ghalib’s couplet, that is why perhaps, the verses
when Prophet Mohammed confessed, again though the genuine Angel, that
Satan had come in disguise. It is sheer honesty.

As I know, Prophet Mohamad did not write Quran himself, but his
deputies wrote it down for him, which is very similar to Ved Vyas, who
was not able to write Mahabarata and so a boy,  or directly Lord
Ganesha who wrote it down for him.

We have reasons to believe that it is true, although we know that oral
tradition, such as Hadith itself, or memorizing the  verses was the
norm those days. So it might have been compiled a little later after
his death, even . Some  scholars even believe that first quran was
complied after 200 years after Prophet Mohammad left this temporal
world.  And besides there is no visible trace of any Quran of that
time. I beleive, the earlierst one is 9th century old. You can correct
me that, please.

 Mahabharata, also depicts the fight between different kings and
clans, and the poet ( himself part of that clan/blood ) emphasized the
reasons of war, and the lessons we might derive from it, such as
ethics and sympathy for the other ( salve, women , children or the
oppressed ).  Krishana was sympathetic to Sudama, his poor friend
etc...

Not for nothing, it is often said that Prophet Mohammad was
compassionate, and also believed that the ink of scholars is precious
than the blood of martyrs. The times were too difficult for these
oppressed clans, who were fighting constantly the rulers who were
mostly Jews, and Christians at other times. It is within the
infighting between Jews and  Christians ( to say it very simply ) that
we see the emergence of Mohammad, the prophet, Note,we say him prophet
because he had the gift of being too good with words, but as I know
during those days, reciting poetry in public was forbidden, can cost
one dearly, even with life. So it had to be uttered secretly, probably
to close friends in a cave.

This is where Hadith helps us the understand, the customs, the other
utterances and ways of living during those times which has indeed
shaped the Quran it self. So the necessity of reading both.

Quote : Truth is subjectivity. by Søren Kierkegaard

with love and regards
inder salim

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:42 PM, M Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Kshmendra
> There is no medieval culture or civilization which didn't have slavery
> in it. In some places it is still existing in the form of castism.
> While it is true that the Quran or Prophet Muhammad did not abolish
> slavery, the movements to end it truly started in the Muslim world,
> much before it was abolished even in Europe. It would be interesting
> to take a look at a book which is even available online:
>
> Islam and the abolition of slavery
> By W. G. Clarence-Smith
>
>
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=nQbylEdqJKkC&dq=islam+against+slavery&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=oC3wSaKiM4zW6gO_4qCfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#PPP1,M1
>
> Please explain why do you say that most people go wrong when they try
> to read Quran with hadith. Almost all Islamic scholars are of the
> opinion that the cryptic nature of the Quran can be best understood by
> interpreting it through hadiths - the two cannot be understood without
> each other. I would like you to read on essay about some new work on
> the interpretation of hadith:
>
> http://www.isim.nl/files/review_21/review_21-6.pdf
>
> Javed
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
<kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dear Venugopalan
>>
>> Just a few comments on what you have written:
>>
>> - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer)
>>
>> - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments
on it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable
>>
>> - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than
ONLY for the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations).
>>
>> - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the
Law for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes'
as may be understood in secular terms
>>
>> - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is
absolutely egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the
VISION of ALLAH and not Mohammed.
>>
>> While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do
wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The Hadith
are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with the
Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect.
>>
>> Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own
understanding), it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things
better if they were to identify the following aspects:
>>
>> - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on  Creator and
the Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations
>>
>> - Advisories for Mohammed alone
>>
>> - Advisories for everyone
>>
>> - Advisories for specific times
>>
>> - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after
>>
>> - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not be
advisories  in perpetutity for ever after
>>
>> Kshmendra
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> From: Venugopalan K M <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page
>> To: "sarai-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Venugopalan K M <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM
>> Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page
>> To:
>>
>>
>>
>> Respected friends,
>> Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I
shortly intend to publish a translation of the work  in Malayalam, which is my
mother tongue.
>> Warmly,
>> Venu.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry
>> by Fatima Mernissi
>> In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to
shed light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the
literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from
being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet
upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of
feminism with the... (more)
>>
>>      kmvenuannur
>>          o Rated 0 stars
>>
>>      “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly
exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by
the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to
challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically
cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two
centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major
findings of the author are the following:
>>      1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the
public and private realms of life.
>>      2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely
egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with
that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a
new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans.
>>      3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among
the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was
possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the
new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre
Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These
women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty.
>>      4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl
separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave
crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of
the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of
crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of
military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people.
>>      5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the
articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of
equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on
account of this.
>>      6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law
Umer continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They
persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above
all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public
space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as
the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab-
>>      7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to
the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first
night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the
incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who
continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the
place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the
company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ”
>>      kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit
|permalink )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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http://indersalim.livejournal.com
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