[Reader-list] When was the first time you were told there is God?
Kshmendra Kaul
kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 2 19:59:12 IST 2009
Ram! Ram! Pheeta Ram Ji
That is extremely well written
Kshmendra
--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Pheeta Ram <pheeta.ram at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Pheeta Ram <pheeta.ram at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When was the first time you were told there is God?
To: "motherdivine" <rocky.terrain at rediffmail.com>
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 6:57 PM
Mother...How i wish God were "only boxed within religions" but that, as your
divine self has suggested, is certainly not the case. It pervades the ether
we are surrounded/constituted by. It is this ethereal substance that cements
our social relations. But very sadly, it mercilessly divides us when in
moments of "communal" frenzy we helplessly begin wearing our religious
identities as our skins. If it includes the members of one community then it
simultaneously excludes the members of other religions. This kind of paradox
is inbuilt in all "religions" - whether God is in its box or out - like some
arcane software embedded/hardwired into my washing machine which when goes
corrupt there is no other remedy but to replace the "software" itself.
I think the problem i am moving towards defining is not theism vs atheism.
This has been adequately debated in the annals of our intellectual
histories. I have no idea of this "entire gamut of spirituality" that you
are hinting at but according to one newspaper report the word "spirituality"
is the most bandied about and the most ambiguous word of our times to the
extent that it can also we termed as a "no-meaning" word.
Religions, as i wrote before, are living traditions. What would i do if i
stop visiting a temple which i have been visiting for the last at least
forty years? What should fill the void thus engendered? What need to be the
anchor to my reality if i let go or purge myself of the notion of God or
belief in some totem? Such questions stare at my face when i put before you
such an indecent proposal. And that's good. We have been inventing
traditions for so many centuries now, what stops us from inventing some more
that include everybody and exclude none. Why are we so afraid to let go of
certain categories that have been with us since time immemorial? Our
predicament certainly reflects the power that these invented categories have
come to exert upon us.
Polytheism doesn't solve our problem because we even then refuse to take
responsibility of ourselves, our fellow beings, our society, our earth and
our future generations. Whether we believe in One God or have a fractured
notion of God or believe that many heavenly beings attend upon my destiny
the problem remains as i begin counting from "One" onwards. Why is it said
that "God made the integers"? Why is it that theists can live without any
problem in a solitary confinement of a dark cave for as much time as they
want and an atheist would run for the society within 24 hours of
confinement? Who would you prefer: somebody who is happy sitting in some
cave in the himalayas without any concern for the society or somebody who
lives among human beings?
I agree with you, religion is a very very serious business and no "pastime";
its not for nothing that we also talk of economies of religions. From elites
to the masses all are involved in this busy-ness. From elites in their
designer suits to a plain worker in tattered clothes all pay obeisance at
the altar of God or Gods( eventually it comes to number 1). Religion is a
very serious business that also provides us with soap operatic
entertainment. I don't have anything else to put in place of God, and i am
afraid of the void that remains and so i cling on to whatever i have,
something is better than nothing, am i right?.
Its a very very strange thing that it's you who have invoked Marx without
naming him: "Religion is the opium of the masses."
Sadly i don't have a grounding in Marxism but i have been told that many
important experiments were done in Russia and China in its name and a proper
knowledge of the history and practice of marxism would be not out of place
in the context of my line of inquiry. I am depending upon somebody in this
forum to pitch in from the Marxist side to broaden the scope of my
"proposal" or atleast "cut it to size" but sadly no response is being
posted. And i am terribly afraid to even flip through hardbound tomes on
Marxism. But someday i would, i assure you, though it doesn't and won't
matter even remotely to you.
Che: how i wish i could confess myself to being an expert on Che. That would
need a lot of reading beyond the scope of my present engagements. A
superficial understanding of his life and work gleaned from Wikipedia seems
to be enough for me and i would recommend this small dose to all those kewl
guys who flaunt T-shirts with his face on them.
My purpose of beginning this discussion is not to laugh at the masses who as
they say "live" their religion, and truly so. I think my entire unease is at
the proliferation of hatred against our fellow beings and its invading our
everyday lives. Riots have traumatised our contemporary selves and i shudder
at seeing the extent to which we can go to assert our "religious" identities
not verbally but by writing them with blood on other people's bodies.
According to one science magazine: people who believe in "God," or in their
words "believers," live more happily than the non-believers. Believers even
get well quickly if they ever fall ill. So if i am distraught in casuality
ward of AIIMS trauma centre one sure shot medicine is "belief". But, let me
tell you that by invoking these categories i am courting the danger of
falling in the usual binary essentialism of "theism" and "atheism." Both are
the same when it comes to defining the identities: the principal marker of
one's identity, whether of acceptance or denial still remains God. If i am
an atheist: i define my identity as being one "who doesn't believe" in God
and there's the rub. Why does God/my religion become the ultimate marker of
my identity? What are the other possible markers that i must "invent" in
order to at least assure the coming generations a riot free life full of
harmony where everydbody takes the burden of responsibility, at least i have
the right to dream about such a society...don't I, motherdivine?
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 3:10 PM, motherdivine
<rocky.terrain at rediffmail.com>wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> there is yet another strand to religion Vs non religion. You are wrongly
> assuming that God is only boxed within religions, that are according to one
> perspective the "cause' of all strife.As Murali said there are other
> ways... God as outside reilgion. there is the entire gamut of
> spirituality (you may say this is pagan religion but hey you are
> classifying lifestyles from an eliete monotheistic perspective in that
> case!) so, the views till now of brainwashed atheists and pro hinduism
> group are quite sad to note. Move on ppl this is the twentieth century!
>
> Also, self proclaimed "expert on Che" aka Pheeta Ram, according to you the
> cool ppl (like you?) dont read religious tests, neither do they visit
> worship shrines which are visited by uncool masses (religion is the opium of
> the masses) who wear unbranded jeans and are of a much lower class than your
> majesty.
>
> Ha ha ha so religion for you is some passtime of idiotic others which you
> view as entertainment as and when you please!
> H ha ha ha
> ciao!
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 14:31:32 +0530 wrote
> >Ram! Ram! Pheeta Ram Ji
> >
> >There is no unease over your contribution to the 'threads'. It was on
> the contrary interesting to see how you 'view' religions and the role played
> by them and what you would like to be done about them.
> >
> >I only wanted to understand why were you 'shocked' """" to see many
> kewl guys fitted in branded jeans chanting Hanuman Chalisa when i dragged
> myself out of curiosity to a temple in Delhi.""""""
> >
> >- were you shocked because they were 'guys'?
> >- were you shocked because they were 'kewl' guys?
> >- were you shocked because they wore 'jeans'?
> >- were you shocked because the jeans were 'branded'?
> >- were you shocked because they were in a 'temple'?
> >- were you shocked because they were 'chanting'?
> >- were you shocked because they were chanting 'Hanuman Chalisa'?
> >
> >I also found it interesting that it took your being 'dragged' (by
> yourself) 'out of curiosity to a temple' to have this "shocking" revelation
> dawn upon you.
> >
> >Maybe you are not in touch with the realities around you. Please do
> 'drag' yourself around a bit more.
> >
> >Kshmendra
> >
> >--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Pheeta Ram wrote:
> >
> >
> >From: Pheeta Ram
> >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When was the first time you were told there
> is God?
> >To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com<lt%3Bkshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> >
> >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> >Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:08 PM
> >
> >
> >Is it necessary to reinvent the wheel Kshmendraji? Please refer to the
> threads i have been following and let me
> >know "the point" of your unease. I would like to be corrected if there
> is scope.
> >
> >Yours sincerely
> >Pheeta Ram
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Kshmendra Kaul &
> lt;kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com <lt%3Bkshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Ram! Ram! Pheeta Ram Ji
> >
> >
> >You wrote:
> >
> >"I was shocked to see many kewl guys fitted in branded jeans chanting
> Hanuman Chalisa when i dragged myself out of curiosity to a temple in
> Delhi."
> >
> >Could you please elaborate on why you were "shocked"?
> >
> >Kshmendra
> >
> >
> >
> >--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Pheeta Ram wrote:
> >
> >
> >From: Pheeta Ram
> >Subject: [Reader-list] When was the first time you were told there is
> God?
> >To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 2:35 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Dear All,
> >I know this won't go down well with most of you but here it is:
> >Religions are the basic source of strife and as long as there will be
> >religions
> >(belief in this God and that) there will be such hostilities. By
> professing
> >one religion
> >i simultaneously create an other being who, by inference, is either
> follower
> >of some religion
> >or a pagan. The basic contradiction in all religions is that despite
> their
> >moral-ethical discourse
> >regarding oneness of all humanity they are the principal segregators.
> All
> >the saints who have
> >walked the earth deluded themselves with such fancies.
> >
> >Religion is not just a system of belief but also an economy. We depend
> a lot
> >upon our religious capital
> >for our subsistance. A person who professes to be a member of certain
> >community (primarily religious)
> >also depends upon it as a kind of umbilical cord and draws sucour.
> >
> >By now earth has soaked so much blood because of religious strifes that
> >sometimes i wonder isn't it time
> >to abandon all religious badges and create a ethical moral code drawn
> from
> >all the religions and start believing
> >in one community: that is Human.
> >
> >I think we need to believe in our brother next door and one walking on
> the
> >street or the worker on a Metro site.
> >We need to believe that for the survival of humanity we need to believe
> in
> >each other and not on some transcendental
> >agency. I wonder why we haven't learnt from our history. The primary
> reason
> >why we have failed terribly in creating a
> >community of all human beings that walk the earth is because we are
> afraid.
> >Afraid to believe in somebody who is in
> >front of us in flesh and blood. I remember a man sitting in Blue Line
> who
> >was highly uncomfortable when a profusely sweating migrant labourer got
> in
> >and found a seat, to his great relief, by his side. It is certain that
> he
> >didn't know of the
> >religion of that worker but the stench of his sweat and his dirty
> clothes
> >were enough for him to get up and keep standing
> >for the rest of his journey. I wonder when we have such intolerence for
> a
> >'fellow' human beings' honest sweat how would we
> >ever begin even thinking about such a Human community. The perils that
> face
> >the earth now are reasons enough that we
> >start believing in each other and work for the future of humanity by
> >shunning all our sectarian tags. But strangely we are busy
> >inventing/refurbishing new messiah who would deliver us from the mess
> that
> >we have ourselves created on this earth.
> >
> >I wonder what stops us from creating a new religion of Humanity.
> >
> >The advice that comes from scholarly circles regarding all this
> religious
> >intolerance is :Tolerance!
> >That we need to tolerate each other. Tolerance is another form of
> fascism or
> >nazism, what ever. I won't agree with substituting
> >the word toleracne with "respect" or "compassion". Why tolerate the
> very
> >root of strife in the first place.
> >
> >And yet, sadly, things are not as simple as that. But a time comes when
> we
> >have to call a spade a spade.
> >We have to shun God to love human beings. There is no other way. Just
> >visualize the situation: Two guys are standing in a big stadium in
> front of
> >each other, just a metre apart but with their faces 'heaven'wards. Why
> are
> >they afraid to see each other directly.
> >Why does the need arise to travel so many light years and then come to
> ones
> >brother standing just a meter away.
> >
> >I know it is plain foolishness to ask somebody whose bread and butter
> >depends upon religion to shun it and enter the fold of Humanity where
> people
> >believe in people and work with mutual responsibility. But we
> >need neo-believers who are foolish enough to
> >believe in such a possibility and are ready to work for it. It's a
> >long revolution but a possible one.
> >
> >But, the roadblocks are mighty hard to surpass. Take for instance my
> case:
> >I have a primary school in my neighbourhood, a government one. And
> >every morning even before i have got up their assembly begins and the
> chants
> >of sacred Hindu mantras begin. All this atma and parmatma stuff. Though
> i
> >don't dispute the sense inherent in the prayer yet aren't we or rather
> the
> >supposedly and proffessedly secular government entering into the
> business
> >of 'mass conversion'. When i have all these religious prayers embedded
> into
> >my consciousness right from my childhood can you imagine how much i
> would
> >have to suffer to convert back to the religion of humanity if i convert
> at
> >all and not turn into some religious fanatic. Less said of the schools
> run
> >by one religion or the other the better.
> >
> >Though the proposal seems indecent yet i think there are madmen enough
> to
> >believe in this long long revolution.
> >
> >_________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________
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