[Reader-list] Fwd: A Just Peace in Kashmir? Reflections on

Sun Aug 9 13:55:33 IST 2009

Dear Shuddha, dear all

"The devil (some say the divine) is in the details. "

wonderful, i like the line, and other nuances/points made by you in
response to the discussioin of Dr. Shapiro's essay so far.

True, all we have words, and the possiblitiy to enter the 'details' is
not unrealistic.Beyond bullets, and 'kan-i-jung( war with stones ) in
Kashmir,  we have words, and other means which are deeply associated
with structure of sounds ( silences ).  And who knows what is hidden
behind 'the detail' which is often brushed aside while we generalize.
Conventionally the texture is subservient to a monument once
appreicated from a distance,but eventually detail inundate the form
once we develop intimacy with a particular monument. . And i beleive,
KSHMIR is a monumental issue and deserves a closer understating ,
which certainly would be markedly different from the usual short-cut
knoweldge on Kashmir.

The details available to us, and i guess Dr. Richard is demanding from
all the players, in and outside Kashmir, to look into the details of
our respective presents, and he hopes that such an understanding might
drastically reduce/annihilate those mind-sets which generate pain.

An inhibitant of a particular area, a writer, a poet, an artist has
her/his involvement with issues ( kashmir and other ) on their own
terms. Dr. Shapiro's involvement from a distance comes from a nobler
thought: vital and universal values of human beings on earth.

Yes, Dr. Richard can not be part of the detail in Kashmir: for example this:

Druing my shcool days, while going to shcool which was across the
river Vyeth ( Jehlum ) we often met a neighbour, Mohd. Ali along with
his three or four cows to feed them outside Dara Shikou garden in
Bijbehara. He used to laugh and smile on seeing us. He was sanwala (
Krishana like dark skinned ) curly haried with a beautiful face in his
40's. He was always wearing clean clothes not usual to those who were
in his profession. Once, he told us, or we came to know through some
body, that he was a student of LLB in Ali Garh university and left his
studies midway.  The reason: he could not live without his mother. He
missed her beyond his control.

Now, by the usual standards, he is a failure, but his strong
relationship with his memmory of  his mother is beyond the purview of
an outsider. I guess, sometimes, we have no mechanism to judge the
other.

Similarly, there are thousands of other details wihch makes a place
profoundly interesting to an individual and thesociety she/he lives
in. Language is another area which becomes vital to a society and so
retains the fragrance of memory...

Yes, my association with memory in Kashmir: we had a huge poppy field
behind our school, and the smell of it as we know is very strong. Now,
if i  happen to smell opium or a poppy flower, i quickly remember by
school days. I see the colour of the flowers and the school uniform
simultaneously.

Distributing kashmiri kulcha ( dry kashmiri bread ) , layered with
poppy seeds, at JNU's arts and aesthetics,  during a small group show
was also loaded with such a texture/memory.

So, i believe, detail/texture is very close to performances. And
strangely, i feel why, hysterically, people come to streets....

the reason must not be only political, but something deeper...

with love
is

On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Rahul Asthana<rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Shuddha,
> You say
> "That said, I think it is churlish to object to
>> Shapiro's text merely on the grounds that it does not
>> 'do' Pakistan."
>  To talk about the human rights situation in Indian Kashmir or AFSPA, I agree, pakistan is irrelevant. India's duty to Kashmiris in Indian Kashmir is not contingent in any way  on pakistan.
> But when you talk about a long term stable solution in Kashmir,which is what the title of the piece leads one to believe it is about, you cant totally ignore pakistans disruptive influence like Shapiro did.I hope you see the nuance here.
> Also,I dont hold any brief for the Indian state.But I have a problem with the formulation of the Kashmir issue as purely a human rights issue framing the Indian state as the culprit,not for any other reason but that it is not the complete picture.If one tends to overlook that part of the picture because one thinks that it dilutes one's anti India rhetoric, one does that at the cost of being distanced from a pragmatic and realistic discussion about a solution to the problem.
> Thanks
> Rahul
>
>
> --- On Sun, 8/9/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: A Just Peace in Kashmir? Reflections on
>> To: "Rahul Asthana" <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "Sarai Reader List" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 11:20 AM
>>
>> Dear Rahul,
>> I don't think Pakistan should get a free
>> pass at all. The ruling elites in Pakistan have been totally
>> cynical about Kashmir, and have contributed a great deal
>> towards making sure that the situation is as bad as it is.
>> Nor am I under any illusion about the state of affairs in
>> Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Elections in Pakistan occupied
>> Kashmir have never been free or fair, and it is clear to
>> everyone that a lack of commitment to the
>> Pakistani dispensation in POK, euphemisticaly, and in a
>> slightly Orwellian manner, called 'Azad'
>> Kashmir, is a disqualifier. This is why, 'pro-independence'
>> activists, who while they may have been supported by the
>> Pakistani establishment, in Indian occupied Kashmir, have
>> always had a rough time in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir. There
>> is not much 'azadi' to be had in 'azad'
>> Kashmir, but to be fair, there isn't the spectacle of
>> the highest soldier-to-civilian population-ratio, or the
>> Armed Forces Special Powers Act, either. A simple (and not
>> very radical) move, like withdrawing the army in Kashmir to
>> barracks, and a repeal of the AFSPA could make it possible
>> to discuss the equivalence of the situation across the line
>> of control. Until that happens, I think we have to accept
>> that the Indian state will get the lions share of
>> opprobrium, at least insofar as the handling of Kashmir is
>> concerned.
>> Having said that, we
>> know quite well how the Pakistani ruling elite
>> has historically handled dissent in East Pakistan and
>> continues to handle insurbordination in Sind, or
>> in Baluchistan. Those in Kashmir who see (or profess to
>> see) the political landscape of Pakistan through rose tinted
>> glasses are either deluded, or cynical.
>> This situation is not by any means an exception.
>> The regimes of Saddam Hussein in Iraq and Khomeini in Iran,
>> routinely supported Kurdish nationalists (as long as they
>> were on the 'other' side of the border) even as they
>> ruthlessly persecuted the same Kurdish
>> nationalists.
>> That said, I think it is churlish to object to
>> Shapiro's text merely on the grounds that it does not
>> 'do' Pakistan. That would be like saying, in order
>> to articulate a critique of the Pakistani ruling elite's
>> venality in say, Balochistan, (which has a lot to do with a
>> greed for gas) one must mention Kashmir and the Indian
>> state's record in Kashmir, a thousand times. Shapiro
>> writes against the context of a massive ongoing and
>> formal/informal public relations exercise that projects the
>> 'Indian state' as a harmless, 'nice',
>> 'soft' state, while Pakistan is typically fronted as
>> a near pariah spiralling towards Talibanisation. While there
>> may be some truth in the latter assertion, the view that the
>> 'indian state' is something like the next best thing
>> to sliced bread is in need of some overdue correction. It is
>> interesting to see how prickly patriotic Indians have become
>> to the slightest hint of criticism, and how constantly in
>> need of 'Pakistan' bashing their fragile egos are.
>> As if, if there were no Pakistan, it would be absolutely
>> essential to invent it, in order for patriotic Indians to
>> have their little 'hate-fix'. I am sure this
>> phenomenon is mirrored, like so much else, on the other side
>> of the border.
>> Closer to home, we have an interesting example
>> of this narcissism, this petulance to do with all things
>> 'indian', which must somehow be the alpha and omega
>> of every discussion. A while ago, (not so long ago) there
>> was a very interesting post, by Asad Abbasi, which could
>> have begun a timely and critical discussion on Feudalism in
>> Pakistan. Instead of discussing the issue, instead of
>> allowing critical voices from within Pakistan to speak, this
>> thread was hijacked by our 'uber-patriot' Hindutva
>> brigade on this list, and sidetracked into a meaningless and
>> irrelevant discussion on faith and conversion, in India,
>> while the original posting had nothing to do with faith and
>> conversion.
>> What should have been an interesting, critical
>> conversation on feudalism, or at least the persistence of
>> feudal values and mindsets, in Pakistan and South Asia in
>> general, had to degenerate into a platform for pious and
>> macho Hindutva posturing.
>> Till when will people in India think that they
>> are some divine exception to the generality of the human
>> species, above, beyond criticism and reproach, ready to leap
>> at the slightest perceived slight to their fragile
>> honour.
>> regards,
>> Shuddha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09-Aug-09, at 8:00 AM, Rahul Asthana
>> wrote:
>>
>> "
>> What forces must cohere to enable a just peace to emerge in
>> a democratic Kashmir in the foreseeable
>> future?"And
>> so the analysis of Richard Shapiro ensues.POK or PCK
>> whatever one may choose to call it,is never mentioned. Nor
>> is Pakistan's role in fomenting terrorism in Indian
>> Kashmir and India finds a mention. Pakistan,it seems,in his
>> opinion, doesn't have anything to do to enable "a
>> just peace to emerge in a democratic Kashmir in the
>> foreseeable future".Even
>> Junaid ignored my question about whether he things only
>> India is the occupying nation or he holds Pakistan too as
>> one.(If he replied then I missed it.)I fail to understand
>> why Pakistan gets a free pass.
>> ---
>> On Sun, 8/9/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
>> wrote:
>>  From:
>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>Subject:
>> Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: A Just Peace in Kashmir? Reflections
>> onTo:
>> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" <shuddha at sarai.net>Cc:
>> "Sarai Reader List" <reader-list at sarai.net>Date:
>> Sunday, August 9, 2009, 4:04 AMDear
>> All,
>> Apologies
>> for having to make this minor, but notinsignificant  clarification.
>> The phrase 'United States of Nigeria' usedin
>> my  previous
>> posting should read as the 'United States ofMexico'.
>> 'The  Federation
>> of Nigeria' (invoked in the next sentence) isthe
>> correct  form
>> of the state in Nigeria.
>> The
>> devil (some say the divine) is in the details.
>> best
>> Shuddha
>>
>>
>> On
>> 09-Aug-09, at 2:07 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>> wrote:
>>  Dear
>> Sanjay, Kshmendra, Junaid, Inder, Dear all,
>> I
>> have read with care the post forwarding Professor
>> Richard
>> Shapiro's essay
>> on the situation in Kashmir (originally
>> circulated
>> on South Asia
>> Citizens Web). I looked very carefully to see if
>> there
>> were indeed
>> any 'sweeping generalizations'  and
>> 'misrepresentations',
>> as Kshmendra
>> insists this essay has embedded within it, I
>> also
>> looked for
>> any evidence of 'anti India biases and
>> prejudices',
>> and I have to say
>> that i found none.
>> Shuddhabrata
>> SenguptaThe
>> Sarai Programme at CSDSRaqs
>> Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net
>>
>> _________________________________________reader-list:
>> an open discussion list on media and thecity.Critiques
>> & CollaborationsTo
>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
>> subscribe in the subject header.To
>> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List
>> archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Shuddhabrata
>> SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at
>> CSDSRaqs Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

-- 

http://indersalim.livejournal.com