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[Taha Mehmood]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/programmes/andrew_marr_show/7757215.stm

BBC NEWS / ANDREW MARR SHOW
10:12 GMT, Sunday, 30 November 2008
Into conspiracy theory territory

On Sunday 30 November, Andrew Marr interviewed Jacqui Smith MP - Home Secretary

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of
this transcript is used.

The Home Secretary Jacqui Smith answers claims that the Conservative
MP Damian Green was bugged.

Jacqui Smith MP - Home Secretary

ANDREW MARR: We've already spoken this morning about the horrific
evidence in Mumbai and we've talked as well just now of course about
that controversy over the arrest of the Conservative front bencher
Damian Green.

Now these are both matters for the Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, who
also has a raft of new measures from binge drinking to prostitution
coming up in the next session of Parliament and she's with me now.

Thank you indeed for coming in. Could we start with the terrorist
issue because it's been widely said that this was a new kind of attack
in Mumbai.

This was not a long planned bombing, but this was a widespread raid of
people who ran amuck with machine guns. Does that mean that we have to
in this country revise the way that we've been thinking about
potential attacks?

JACQUI SMITH: Well, I mean the first thing to say is that you know
this is clearly a very serious event in India. Our condolences of
course go to those who've been killed and injured as part of it. Our
first priority is to support both the Indian authorities and our
nationals who have been involved in it.

But yes, of course, we do need to look in terms of our own work on
terrorism at whether or not and what lessons need to be learnt. We of
course need to revise the very important work that we do on protecting
our crowded places, our country as a whole from terrorism, to bear in
mind any lessons that we learn from this and we will do that.

But what it also of course identifies is what we have said, which is:
We face a serious and sustained threat from terrorism, that is an
international threat, it impacts potentially both on British nationals
overseas and also on our interests and our country as well.

ANDREW MARR: Now we don't think at this stage, do we, that there were
British nationals involved in the terrorist group despite some earlier
reports?

JACQUI SMITH: Some of the earlier suggestions about this have actually
been retracted. But we will of course need to look in detail...

ANDREW MARR: Early days.

JACQUI SMITH: ...at what actually happened, yeah.

ANDREW MARR: We have very close contacts with Pakistan. If it turns
out that this was a Pakistani based group, does that make Britain more
vulnerable than we thought even before?

JACQUI SMITH: Well the first priority I think is that we are clear
about, and the Indian authorities are clear in their investigations,
about what happened. Incidentally, I think it does create a test for
what has been a warming of relations between India and Pakistan, which
is fundamental to us in helping to protect us and them from terrorism.
It's important that that is maintained and it's carried forward on a
calm basis.

But you know I mean actually we have always argued that we face a
serious and sustained threat from terrorism in this country and that
it has international links. That's part of the reason why our work,
for example our longer term work to prevent people from turning to
terrorism in the first place needs to operate both within the UK and
internationally in third countries that we have important links with.

ANDREW MARR: We have never seen an attack quite like this before
though. I mean it must presumably mean quite a serious review of how
we, you know we think about terrorist attacks because this is unlike
anything else; it could happen here?

JACQUI SMITH: Well what we do know is that international terrorism is
able to develop, to evolve its threat and that therefore we need to
evolve our response. We will look very carefully at the implications
of this type of attack for our ability to be able to respond.

It's in order that we're able to do that, that we have of course
significantly increased the resource that we're devoting to terrorism.
It's why we're in the process now of reviewing our counter-terrorism
strategy. It's why we will look and we have already started to look at
potential implications for our ability to be able to protect our
infrastructure, our people in this country as well.

ANDREW MARR: Let's turn to the other issue that sort of follows from
that, I suppose, which is ID cards because you have made the case
again and again that we need ID cards to help us against terrorism and
that has been widely contested. At the moment the trials of ID cards
seem, to put it politely, pretty thin.

There's a very small number of people involved, there aren't
government scanners which would allow proper information to be taken.
Isn't this the moment - we're facing a huge economic problem,
everybody presumably in government has been asked to look again at
their budgets - to actually say okay, hands up, it's time to put this
on ice, save a lot of money and turn to more traditional ways of
combating terrorism?

JACQUI SMITH: No. I mean first of all, Andrew, we have started just
this week issuing ID cards to foreign nationals, you know so there is
progress and this is a programme that is delivering. Secondly...

ANDREW MARR: And you're going to carry on with it?

JACQUI SMITH: Yes, we are going to carry on with it. Secondly, we have
always said not that ID cards are the answer to terrorism, but frankly
when the Al Qaeda training manual tells people; potential terrorists,
that one of the things they should try and do is to get multiple
identities, I think there is a link between actually enabling people
to tie their identity to themselves and our battle against terrorism -
secondly.

And, thirdly, on the cost, you know let's be quite clear about this.
Firstly, we've been extremely open about the ten year cost of ID
cards. Secondly, that cost has come down as we've developed the
scheme. And, thirdly, anybody - opposition politician or otherwise -
who suggests that there is a large amount of money to be found in this
scheme is frankly wrong. 70% of the money is actually required anyway
to develop biometric passports.

I hope there's nobody suggesting that we should be completely out of
step with the rest of the world by not developing those. And the rest
of it - one, will bring considerable benefits; and, two, will be
covered by fees, as of course passport costs frequently are.

ANDREW MARR: Well let's turn to the other big story in today's papers.
Damian Green, an honourable opposition politician doing his job,
holding your government to account finds nine anti-terrorist officers
inside his house, ransacking every aspect of his private life -
letters between his wife and himself.

His daughter comes home in floods of tears to see this going on. Do
you think before we start on any of the details that you owe Mr Green
an apology?

JACQUI SMITH: Well now let me be clear. Any police investigation that
involves an investigation of a senior political figure or an elected
representative, as incidentally we've seen in other investigations in
recent years, is highly sensitive and decisions need to be taken very
carefully about it. But let's just, I think, also take a step back and
remind ourselves where this investigation started.

It is not an investigation into whether or not opposition politicians
use information that they receive to embarrass or hold to account the
Government. That is a complete legitimate activity - it has gone on,
it should go on, it will go on. This is an investigation, it started
as an investigation of a systematic series of leaks from a department
that deals with some of the most sensitive and confidential
information in government.

A systematic series of breaches of security, effectively. And the idea
that my Permanent Secretary or the Cabinet Secretary would not have
been concerned about this, I think is frankly unbelievable.

ANDREW MARR: And yet given what happened to Mr Green - I come back to
it - and given what happened to his family, do you not think you owe
him an apology?

JACQUI SMITH: Well you know what we appear to be being asked...

ANDREW MARR: The answer seems to be no.

JACQUI SMITH: Well what we appear to be being asked to do by former
home secretaries, by the Leader of the Opposition is to intervene in a
specific investigation being carried out by the police who you know
actually I...

ANDREW MARR: So this kind of stuff's alright?

JACQUI SMITH: No, wait a minute. Who I do believe, when they start an
investigation should, as they have said they need to, follow the
evidence where it takes them.

Now I started, Andrew, by saying that I think when it's an
investigation that involves senior politicians and elected
representatives, as others have, that it's extremely sensitive and
decisions need to be taken very carefully. But frankly...

ANDREW MARR: So the four leaks that were being discussed, which one of
those was to do with national security?

JACQUI SMITH: Wait a minute, Andrew. There are four leaks that are in
the public arena. The point is that this started as an investigation
into a systematic series of leaks about which of course it wasn't
clear what had been leaked and what may not have been leaked. So the
fact that something is in the public domain doesn't mean that those
are the only leaks that have gone on.

ANDREW MARR: Well a leak tends to be... That's the definition of a
leak, I would have thought, that it's in the public domain.

JACQUI SMITH: Well actually...

ANDREW MARR: But moving on from that, when did you know... Let's start
right at the beginning. Who initiated the original leak inquiry?

JACQUI SMITH: Well that was initiated by the Cabinet Office alongside
my Permanent Secretary because, as I say, you know actually breaches
of security from a department that deals with some of the most
confidential and sensitive information in government...

ANDREW MARR: And you knew right from the beginning?

JACQUI SMITH: ...are important.

ANDREW MARR: You knew right from the beginning?

JACQUI SMITH: I knew that there was a leak inquiry. I knew that there
was an investigation.

ANDREW MARR: And did you yourself ask for a leak inquiry?

JACQUI SMITH: I did not ask for it myself.

ANDREW MARR: Did any other minister ask for it that you're aware of?

JACQUI SMITH: No.

ANDREW MARR: Right. When your civil servant was arrested on 11th, you
presumably knew about that?

JACQUI SMITH: Yes.

ANDREW MARR: Did you know about that in advance?

JACQUI SMITH: I knew that there was an investigation going on in
advance and I knew that there was likely to be action taken against
one of our officials in advance, yes.

ANDREW MARR: Right. That was on 11th November. When did you, when you
were told that Damian, or indeed a Conservative front bencher, was the
subject of a police investigation?

JACQUI SMITH: I was told about the search and about the arrest after
it had happened.

ANDREW MARR: What about my original question, which is when did you
know that he was the subject of the investigation?

JACQUI SMITH: Well I didn't know specifically who was the subject of
the investigation. And incidentally, Andrew...

ANDREW MARR: Sorry, did you know...

JACQUI SMITH: ...nor do I... No, I'm saying I didn't...

ANDREW MARR: It's quite important. I know, but did you know that a
Conservative MP was being investigated before the arrest of Damian
Green?

JACQUI SMITH: No because what I think is important here is that
actually the police are able to use their professional judgement to
pursue an investigation.

And, frankly, you know there have been a lot of charges thrown around
here - the idea that you know this is Stalinism, this is a police
state. In my book, Stalinism and a police state happens where
ministers direct and interfere with specific investigations that the
police are carrying out.

And I have been very clear that in my view the police should have
operational independence, they should be able to pursue investigations
in the way in which their professional judgement suggests. I don't
know what evidence they are looking at.

ANDREW MARR: So...

JACQUI SMITH: Incidentally, neither do any of the other people that
are commenting. And I do think it is important that if you believe in
the principle of operational independence for policing, you believe in
that even when they are difficult and sensitive investigations.

ANDREW MARR: So you knew nothing about an opposition front bencher
going to be arrested by counter-terrorism police and it's right that
as Home Secretary you knew nothing?

JACQUI SMITH: No, I think it is right that I knew that there was an
investigation going on. I did not know before the arrest that that
particular front bench spokesman or any front bench spokesman was
about to be searched and arrested.

But actually what I think is right is that once the investigation is
underway and the police are pursuing and gathering detailed evidence
and using their professional judgement as to where that goes, that
politicians shouldn't interfere in that detailed operation.

ANDREW MARR: Damian Green...

JACQUI SMITH: That's the view that I take.

ANDREW MARR: Damian Green clearly believes that he was bugged - that
his BlackBerry was bugged, his phone was bugged. Now if that was the
case, you would have had to have approved that, wouldn't you?

JACQUI SMITH: If that were the case, I would have signed a warrant.

ANDREW MARR: Did you sign any such warrant?

JACQUI SMITH: Andrew... No. Andrew...

ANDREW MARR: Sorry, I just... these are quite important questions.

JACQUI SMITH: Well because I'm sorry, Andrew, home secretaries don't
confirm or deny which warrants they have or have not signed. But,
frankly, you know let me be clear about this, we are getting totally
into conspiracy theory territory here.

ANDREW MARR: So you didn't sign such a warrant?

JACQUI SMITH: Totally into conspiracy theory territory.

ANDREW MARR: You didn't sign such a warrant. As a politician, do you
think it is appropriate that on a matter like this, which is about
leaks, embarrassing leaks - they may be to do with public security but
so far they've just been embarrassing leaks - that a politician,
senior politician doing his job has his house invaded by nine
anti-terrorist police who then hold him for hours and hours, who then
go into the House of Commons, breaking parliamentary privilege and do
the same thing there - surely as a politician, you can't approve of
this?

JACQUI SMITH: Andrew, you have made a series of assertions about what
this investigation is about. Now frankly, Andrew, you don't have the
evidence that the police are looking at at the moment. Neither do I.
Let me...

ANDREW MARR: So it's a lot more serious than we know, is it?

JACQUI SMITH: Well let me... Well you know the point is that let me
remind us where we started. This was about a series of breaches of
security in a department that deals with some of the most confidential
and sensitive information across government - a systematic series of
leaks.

I think it is right that investigation should happen there. What I've
also said, and I started by saying this, is that you know this is not
about politicians being able to use information that they come across
to hold the Government to account, even to embarrass the Government.

That is and should always be able to happen. But you know to return to
where this investigation started, the idea that the senior Civil
Service or myself as Home Secretary would not be concerned about the
operation of our department given the series of leaks that we face, I
think would have been wrong.

ANDREW MARR: Alright. One last go. I think a lot of people watching
will be very, very surprised, given what has happened to Mr Green and
his family, that you do not feel able to apologise to him.

JACQUI SMITH: Well what I've said to you, Andrew, is that if you
believe in the operational independence of policing, if you believe
that the professional judgement of police officers during the course
of an investigation should be able to take its course, well you
believe that even when things are tricky and sensitive.

The idea that you charge into impact on operational independence when
things get a bit hot is not a principled position. I believe in the
principle of the operational independence of policing and that's what
I'm carrying out.

ANDREW MARR: Let me ask you about binge drinking, which is going to be
probably the centrepiece of some of what you're announcing in the
Queen's Speech. We've had lots and lots of initiatives about binge
drinking over the years. This is another one. Why is this one going to
work when the others haven't?

JACQUI SMITH: Well can I just say first of all on the Queen's speech,
there will be a series of measures that are about actually ensuring
that the rules we live by in this country are fair, that we're on the
side of those people who are law abiding.

There is a particular issue about drinking that we will want to take
action on and that's to say whilst we've seen crime linked to alcohol
actually coming down by a third over the last ten years, there is
still concern about alcohol-linked crime and disorder. You know I
don't think any of us want to have our city centres with people you
know lying on the pavements and being sick. All of us have a
responsibility, therefore, to take action on that. That is additional
support for the police, which we will provide, and it's also saying
that industry has to take a responsibility alongside that as well.

Which is why what we'll be looking at is how we can strengthen the
standards that we expect, particularly around irresponsible promotion
of alcohol. We've consulted on whether or not that should be in the
form of a mandatory code. I think it should be mandatory in terms of
certain conditions around licensing that focus on the most
irresponsible forms of promotion of drink.

ANDREW MARR: Do you not think that this government in relaxing the
licensing laws in the first place is partly responsible for what's
happened?

JACQUI SMITH: Well actually the evidence doesn't suggest that. It
suggests actually that since the Licensing Act, there have been
effectively an unchanged level of incidents related to alcohol. But I
think what we do know is that people are concerned about both
irresponsible promotions of drink and the impact of that, yes, on
people's health, also on crime and disorder, and that's why... And
also as well they're concerned about the impact on young people. So
those are the areas that we want to focus our efforts on.

ANDREW MARR: So to be clear, can you stop for instance two for one
drink promotions, women drink free - all of those kind of things that
people have been talking about?

JACQUI SMITH: I think those are the things that we should be saying,
you know, are unreasonable. Incidentally, the industry had a set of
voluntary standards that should have helped us to make progress on
those.

We asked for an independent review of those voluntary standards, which
suggested that really they weren't being implemented in the way in
which they should do. That's why we will now bring forward proposals
for mandatory conditions on everybody, whether on the on trade or the
off trade off-licences or pubs and bars, supermarkets who sell alcohol
to stop some of those most irresponsible promotions.

You know and I think you've identified some of them - the idea that
you pay a set price and drink as much as you can for the evening; the
idea that if you're a woman and you go into a bar, you get to drink
free; the idea that you might be running sort of games or promotions
that actually encourage people drinking. And incidentally other things
like you know making sure smaller glasses are available alongside
larger glasses.

ANDREW MARR: Alongside the big ones. Alright. For now, Jacqui Smith,
thank you very much indeed for joining us.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of
this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an
original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some
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