[Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths about pakistan

Sun Jan 18 05:15:28 IST 2009

Dear Taha,
If you have a question or comment around what I posted,feel free to ask.I want to know your perspective about that black\white\gray stuff.Thanks for the exchange,anyway.
Moving on.
Another myth in that list by Hanif is that "All Pakistanis hate India".This is an interesting device,I think.He frames a straw man and all he needs to do now is to prove that "some" Pakistanis don't hate India and another so called myth is dispelled.In fact,I do not believe that even "most" Pakistanis hate India.I wouldn't be surprised after the recent attacks that more Indians hate Pakistan than vice versa.
The following link is interesting,all the same.
"However, nearly 50 percent of all those surveyed in Karachi believed that suicide bombing was acceptable in Palestine, Kashmir and Lebanon."
http://karachi.metblogs.com/2008/08/28/15-in-karachi-back-suicide-bombers-study/
Those figures are from Karachi.I wouldn't be surprised if that 50% became 100% in NWFP etc. Again,point here is not that Pakistanis hate Indians.
A Pakistani may have nothing but regret and sympathy on the death of the innocents in Bombay.The point is that there is a well oiled machinery which uses the  hatred to finance terrorism in India.There are/were jihadi donation boxes in all the major cities of Pakistan.Pakistan Army has long since nurtured these so called non state actors  to engage in asymmetric warfare with India.LET,after being banned,remerged as JUD and carried on its activities.As the news report I posted earlier showed,the Pakistan government allowed the LET chief to import a bullet proof vehicle as recently as October 2008.So despite of all the love that Pakistanis show when Indians go to watch cricket matches, some Pakistanis donate to organizations like LET\JUD who keep on planning terrorist attacks on Indians.
We could perhaps accept a certain number of Indian deaths as a cost of Pakistan's existence in the present form,or we could think what India can do.As Taha Mahmood and Aman Sethi have very nobly suggested,we could probably continue to ""to peer more closely and throughly to clearly grasp the tones of grays before we pull out the blacks and whites apart". 

Thanks
Rahul

-- On Thu, 1/8/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote:

> From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths about pakistan
> To: rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> Cc: "Aman Sethi" <aman.am at gmail.com>, "reader-list at sarai.net" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 6:43 AM
> Dear Rahul,
> 
> How do you know that what ever I wrote was for some
> 'benefit'? What was my
> post if not a way of joining this discussion? You may
> interpret my post in
> what so ever a manner in which you deem fit, hence if in
> your judgment my
> post comes as patronizing,  I say, fair enough!!!
> 
> If you think that you were trying to understand the grays,
> then dear Rahul,
> I most humbly urge you to enlighten us more about the
> issue. I will
> certainly respond with my questions and comments.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Taha
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:55 AM, Rahul Asthana
> <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>wrote:
> 
> > Dear Taha,
> > What is the benefit of throwing platitudes around? Why
> don't you join the
> > discussion and help us "to peer more closely and
> > throughly to clearly grasp the tones of grays before
> we pull out the blacks
> > and whites apart"?
> > I am sorry but you are being patronizing.What makes
> you think I was not
> > already doing that?
> > Regards
> > Rahul
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Taha Mehmood
> <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Taha Mehmood
> <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and
> ordered houses - re: 10
> > myths about pakistan
> > > To: "Aman Sethi"
> <aman.am at gmail.com>, "reader-list at sarai.net"
> <
> > reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 11:54 AM
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > I think if we invest some time in thinking about
> the big
> > > picture and
> > > consciously juxtaposing it with its pixels we can
> perhaps
> > > arrive at a better
> > > understanding of the situation. What we are
> seeing in India
> > > and Pakistan as
> > > suggested by the recent spate of events in both
> the
> > > countries and
> > > interpretations of these events, is a ripening up
> of the
> > > tension of the idea
> > > of State and Statehood. This, rather unclear
> notion of the
> > > State in the
> > > subcontinent,  has produced certain dilemmas.
> These
> > > dilemmas are translated
> > > and re-phrased by actors who are not necessarily
> formal in
> > > their
> > > orientation. Hence on the index of social canvass
> we
> > > witness an ugly
> > > churning of this dialectic. As meaning makers we
> may invest
> > > our energies to
> > > arrive at this or that conclusion or we may take
> a position
> > > to suspend any
> > > judgment. This is not to suggest that Aman's
> point of
> > > view is invalid or
> > > that Rahul's position is right on target or
> Taraprakash
> > > is way off the mark
> > > but to emphasize that, far from it, perhaps we
> need to peer
> > > more closely and
> > > throughly to clearly grasp the tones of grays
> before we
> > > pull out the blacks
> > > and whites apart.
> > >
> > > Warm regards
> > >
> > > Taha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Aman Sethi
> > > <aman.am at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Clearly this appears to be sliding towards
> the type of
> > > mudslinging (or
> > > > murk slinging) that I have no desire to
> engage with.
> > > Hopefully none of
> > > > us will ever need bulletproof cars.
> > > >
> > > > Unlike Taraprakash I do not think that
> everyone who
> > > simply says that
> > > > maybe someone who says that the Indian Press
> depicts a
> > > flawed picture
> > > > of pakistan is somehow a "human rights
> > > activist".
> > > > I also find it interesting that a
> "human rights
> > > activist" is now
> > > > suddenly a pejorative tearm "You humans
> rights
> > > activist!" "How dare
> > > > you say anyone has any rights to anything at
> all -
> > > when people are
> > > > dying on the streets!"
> > > >
> > > > (Speaking of streets Interestingly, road
> accidents
> > > actually kill about
> > > > 275 people a day in India -
> > > >
> http://www.arrivesafe.org/news_detail.php?id=1058 far
> > > more than terror
> > > > does - but i dont see Taraprakash similarly
> excised by
> > > this loss. I'm
> > > > worried because in the road accident,even
> the
> > > bullet-proof gift of the
> > > > pakistan government will not help.)
> > > >
> > > > Of course one never wants to appear to be a
> > > pak-apologist - good
> > > > heavens no; or "progressive
> journalist" -
> > > what ever that is - i
> > > > presume the rest are regressive journalists.
> I must
> > > confess a
> > > > self-loathing, self-hating desire to be
> progressive
> > > rather than
> > > > regressive - but rest assured I do not
> demand that
> > > others follow suit.
> > > >
> > > > To restate my point - I am not saying that
> Pakistan
> > > and India are
> > > > these friendly neighbours who spend their
> days passing
> > > the pipe of
> > > > peace. Nor am I saying that the pakistan
> army has
> > > little or nothing to
> > > > do with training armed non-state actors - in
> fact even
> > > the pakistan
> > > > civil govt is not claiming that.
> > > > I am merely saying that at times, it is
> useful to
> > > actually try and
> > > > comprehend news that you disagree with -
> which is why
> > > hanif's piece is
> > > > of interest - not so much because of the
> piece - but
> > > the reactions to
> > > > it. which are "Hanif is lying/talking
> through his
> > > toupee/is a news
> > > > illiterate/"
> > > >
> > > > If one accepts that the civil government and
> the
> > > military and the ISI
> > > > have a fair degree of autonomy - it is
> possible that
> > > there is a
> > > > certain absence of control.
> > > >
> > > > At such a juncture - it is easy to stiffen
> up and say
> > > - enough is
> > > > enough - but that is unintelligent - and
> more
> > > importantly -
> > > > uninteresting.
> > > > best
> > > > a.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:39 PM, taraprakash
> > > <taraprakash at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for posting this article. I am
> sure Syed
> > > Saleem Shahzad will also
> > > > be honoured as someone "talking through
> his
> > > topee", to quote Yasir from an
> > > > earlier mail. Another guy who "talks
> through his
> > > topee" is Pakistan based
> > > > correspondent Hafiz Chachad who works for
> BBC hindi.
> > > You can read another
> > > > report by him on
> > > > > www.bbchindi.com
> > > > > on the nexus between Pakistani state
> and Jihadi
> > > elements working against
> > > > India. Unlike Aman Sethi, this report does
> not see the
> > > water of nexus
> > > > between the two murky; Chachad concludes
> that these
> > > groups are part of the
> > > > state policy. I wonder if the state of
> pakistan will
> > > give these progressive
> > > > journalists, the leftist activists and human
> right
> > > activists of Pakistan
> > > > bullet proof cars.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Rahul
> > > Asthana" <
> > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > > > > To: "taraprakash"
> > > <taraprakash at gmail.com>; "Aman
> Sethi"
> > > <aman.am@
> > > > gmail.com>
> > > > > Cc: "sarai list"
> > > <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 7:59 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Myths,
> Mangoes and
> > > ordered houses - re: 10
> > > > myths about pakistan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> I wonder what new insight can be
> gained by
> > > reading Hanif's piece.He
> > > > could be naive,or maybe he intentionally
> does not want
> > > to paint the full
> > > > picture.
> > > > >> I wonder what myth is he dispelling
> by his
> > > first point.There is an
> > > > awesome catch-all phrase to cover his lack
> of
> > > knowledge viz "Nobody knows
> > > > the whole truth". How does he know? Has
> he talked
> > > with everybody?
> > > > >> Why has he not made the distinction
> between
> > > the jihadis that they are
> > > > killing the army (the good jihadis turned
> bad of the
> > > Alqaeda flavor) and the
> > > > LET(the still good jihadis because they are
> killing
> > > Indians)? Does he not
> > > > know that Al Qaeda and LET are separate
> entities?
> > > > >> I would comment on his other points
> > > later.People may find the following
> > > > article informative.
> > > > >>
> > >
> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JL05Df01.html
> > > > >> Mumbai after-shocks rattle Pakistan
> > > > >> By Syed Saleem Shahzad
> > > > >>
> > > > >> KARACHI - Ten young men from the
> > > Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET)
> > > > were sent on a "sacrificial"
> mission to
> > > Mumbai. Nine of them were killed -
> > > > as they were expected to be - in battles
> with Indian
> > > security forces during
> > > > their three-day rampage last week.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> What did not go according to plan
> was the
> > > capture of 21-year-old Ajmal
> > > > Amir Kesab, who has given details of the
> > > militants' plot that was hatched by
> > > > elements of Pakistan's Inter-Services
> Intelligence
> > > (ISI) and the LET,
> > > > including the training of the mission's
> members at
> > > PNS Iqbal (a naval
> > > > commando unit in Karachi) and at Mangla Dam
> near the
> > > capital Islamabad.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This single arrest has played very
> badly with
> > > the separate plans of
> > > > >> Pakistan's strategic quarters,
> the LET
> > > and al-Qaeda. And beyond the
> > > > escalating tensions between India and
> Pakistan, the
> > > crucial question now
> > > > arises: Will Pakistan succumb to
> Washington's
> > > pressure to meaningfully clamp
> > > > down on the LET - it is already banned - and
> the ISI
> > > forward section
> > > > officers whose collusion resulted the Mumbai
> saga?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Everybody wishes for a war
> between
> > > India and Pakistan," a
> > > > middle-ranking member of the LET told Asia
> Times
> > > Online on condition of
> > > > anonymity. "Had prayers not been
> prohibited for
> > > the battle to happen, today
> > > > all mujahideen would have been praying
> Qunoot-i-Nazela
> > > for battle between
> > > > India and Pakistan as this is the key for
> success for
> > > the mujahideen from
> > > > Afghanistan to India." (The
> Qunoot-i-Nazala is a
> > > prayer offered when there
> > > > is extreme pressure from the enemy and God
> is asked to
> > > remove all fear and
> > > > pressure and grant victory.)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The militants obviously want their
> war, but
> > > the United States now wants
> > > > war on the militants, and therein lies a
> major
> > > problem.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> US Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of
> the Joint
> > > Chiefs of Staff, is in
> > > > Islamabad, as is Secretary of State
> Condoleezza Rice,
> > > following her visit to
> > > > India. Asia Times Online contacts say that
> > > Mullen's overriding message will
> > > > be for Pakistan to get serious about the
> LET, which
> > > has renamed itself
> > > > Jamaatut Dawa, and the ISI officers involved
> in the
> > > Mumbai plot.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ATol earlier outlined how a
> low-level ISI
> > > forward section head (a major)
> > > > allowed what was a plan to attack Kashmir in
> India to
> > > be turned into the
> > > > Mumbai assault. See Al-Qaeda
> 'hijack' led to
> > > Mumbai attack December 2.)
> > > > Ironically, it was as a result of US
> pressure that
> > > changes were made at the
> > > > top levels of the ISI, resulting in the
> situation in
> > > which the major was
> > > > able to make his fateful decision, seemingly
> without
> > > the knowledge of his
> > > > superiors.
> > > > >> Washington's pressure now puts
> the
> > > Pakistani military on the spot, and
> > > > it will be a real test for new Chief of Army
> Staff,
> > > General Ashfaq Parvez
> > > > Kiani, and the army's relationship with
> militants.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Militant support
> > > > >> The chief of the Jamaatut Dawa,
> Hafiz
> > > Muhammad Saeed, was in Sukkur, a
> > > > city 363 kilometers north of the southern
> port city of
> > > Karachi, on November
> > > > 26 and was scheduled to travel to Karachi.
> But after
> > > the Mumbai attack on
> > > > November 27, he was urgently summoned to
> Rawalpindi,
> > > the garrison city
> > > > twinned with Islamabad, to attend a
> high-profile
> > > meeting held in the Office
> > > > of Strategic Organization.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> He was told that the Indian air
> force was on
> > > high alert and asked what
> > > > possible plans he had if India unleashed a
> war. Saeed
> > > assured that the LET
> > > > would be the first line of defense against
> the Indian
> > > navy in the Arabian
> > > > Sea through its marine operations, and that
> it would
> > > escalate its activities
> > > > in India and Kashmir. He added that he would
> tell
> > > militants in Pakistan's
> > > > troubled North-West Frontier Province (NWFP)
> to hold
> > > their fire against the
> > > > Pakistani security forces.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> At the same time, because of the
> threat of
> > > Indian strikes, all militant
> > > > training camps in Muzzafarabad, the capital
> of
> > > Pakistan-administered
> > > > Kashmir, were evacuated.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> A top-level ISI official then held
> a
> > > background briefing for journalists
> > > > in Islamabad in which he said if India
> mobilized its
> > > forces along the
> > > > border, all Pakistani forces would be
> withdrawn from
> > > NWFP, where they are
> > > > fighting Taliban and other militants.
> Controversially,
> > > he said that hardline
> > > > Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud
> and others
> > > would support Pakistan
> > > > if India waged war on the country.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Further, the Pakistani security
> forces
> > > initiated a dialogue process with
> > > > the Taliban in the Swat Valley to discuss
> terms and
> > > conditions for pulling
> > > > out the Pakistani troops.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> An almost perfect plan
> > > > >> The Mumbai attack relied on local
> > > al-Qaeda-linked militants (Indian
> > > > Mujahideen) such as Abdus Subhan Qureshi
> (Tauqir). He
> > > had cased the Jewish
> > > > community center that was attacked and where
> several
> > > people were killed. His
> > > > information was that it was being used by
> Israeli
> > > intelligence - Mossad.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Information on such key targets was
> passed on
> > > to the LET, and its
> > > > well-trained commandos then carried out
> their
> > > meticulously planned operation
> > > > in which only 10 men held Mumbai hostage for
> 72 hours.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Abdus Subhan had planned other
> attacks on
> > > Indian strategic targets
> > > > immediately after the Mumbai attack, but
> Kasab's
> > > arrest prevented this
> > > > through his revelations of his LET
> background.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Washington appears to accept that
> the Mumbai
> > > attack was not carried out
> > > > at the behest of Islamabad or the Pakistan
> army, or
> > > even by the ISI's high
> > > > command. But there is now proof of the
> involvement of
> > > the LET and of some
> > > > junior ISI officials. It is on this point
> that the US
> > > will apply pressure on
> > > > Islamabad: it must curtail such militants.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> But there is a problem.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Militants tighten their grip
> > > > >> The situation in NWFP is spiraling
> out of
> > > control, with militancy
> > > > spilling over from the tribal areas into
> this
> > > province.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In the past four days, militants
> have
> > > abducted a record 60 people from
> > > > the provincial capital Peshawar, most of
> them retired
> > > army officers and
> > > > members or relatives of the Awami National
> Party
> > > (ANP), which rules in the
> > > > province. The Taliban have butchered many
> people with
> > > affiliations to the
> > > > ANP or those with relatives in the security
> apparatus.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Meanwhile, North Atlantic Treaty
> Organization
> > > supply convoys passing
> > > > through Khyber Agency en route to
> Afghanistan have
> > > come under increasing
> > > > attacks. In the most recent incident,
> militants
> > > destroyed 40 containers in
> > > > supposedly secure terminals in the middle of
> Peshawar.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In this anarchic situation, the
> Jamaatut Dawa
> > > (LET), with its
> > > > well-defined vertical command structure
> under the
> > > single command of Saeed,
> > > > could commit its several thousand members,
> virtually a
> > > para-military force,
> > > > to the cause of the anti-state
> al-Qaeda-linked
> > > Pakistani militants.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> What has stopped the anti-India
> orientated
> > > group from doing this is its
> > > > under-riding loyalty to and support from
> Pakistan. If
> > > the authorities start
> > > > to mess with the LET, beyond the routine
> rhetoric, all
> > > hell could break
> > > > loose inside the country.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Similarly, if pressure is placed on
> the ISI,
> > > there could be a severe
> > > > reaction from the more hardline elements in
> that
> > > organization, as well as in
> > > > the military.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> To date, the authorities have not
> given any
> > > indication of their plans.
> > > > If they do indeed resist the overtures of
> Mullen and
> > > Rice, it is most likely
> > > > that the Pakistani armed forces will
> withdraw from the
> > > Swat Valley and
> > > > Bajaur Agency, leaving that area open for
> the
> > > Taliban-led insurgency n
> > > > Afghanistan. Militants can also be expected
> to launch
> > > further attacks on
> > > > India, with dire consequences for whole
> South Asia
> > > region.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Yet the alternative of cracking
> down on the
> > > LET is equally unappealing,
> > > > and potentially as disastrous.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times
> > > Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief. He can
> > > > be reached at saleem_shahzad2002 at yahoo.com
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Aman Sethi
> > > <aman.am at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> From: Aman Sethi
> > > <aman.am at gmail.com>
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list]
> Myths, Mangoes
> > > and ordered houses - re: 10
> > > > myths about pakistan
> > > > >>> To: "taraprakash"
> > > <taraprakash at gmail.com>
> > > > >>> Cc: "sarai list"
> > > <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > >>> Date: Wednesday, January 7,
> 2009, 12:04
> > > AM
> > > > >>> Dear Taraprakash,
> > > > >>> I have never denied the
> presence of
> > > militant groups in
> > > > >>> pakistan. That
> > > > >>> there are "links"
> between armed
> > > groups and power
> > > > >>> centres in pakistan
> > > > >>> is not something i am
> contesting - I
> > > think the interesting
> > > > >>> question is
> > > > >>> the nature of these
> "links" and
> > > the nature of the
> > > > >>> state.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> If I was to say the
> "Indian
> > > state" has
> > > > >>> connections with terror
> > > > >>> organisations in kashmir - what
> would
> > > that mean? One would
> > > > >>> then ask -
> > > > >>> okay - which organ of the state
> - so say
> > > we say the IB - or
> > > > >>> in the
> > > > >>> case of Pakistan - the ISI -
> then once
> > > asks - okay, so does
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> director of IB/ISI have direct
> contact
> > > with a militant
> > > > >>> commander?
> > > > >>> Probably not - its probably a
> connection
> > > between mid-tier
> > > > >>> people on
> > > > >>> both sides - from here on we
> start
> > > entering reasonably
> > > > >>> murky waters
> > > > >>> -which get murkier as one tries
> to plumb
> > > its depths (sorry
> > > > >>> for the
> > > > >>> mixed metaphor) ...
> > > > >>> and Hanif's piece - gives
> an idea of
> > > the complications
> > > > >>> in drawing
> > > > >>> straight lines between dots
> -that is all
> > > I am saying.
> > > > >>> best
> > > > >>> a.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 12:49
> PM,
> > > taraprakash
> > > > >>> <taraprakash at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >>> > Dear Aman and all. I would
> just like
> > > to clarify what I
> > > > >>> said in an earlier
> > > > >>> > mail. One would give the
> benefit of
> > > the doubt to the
> > > > >>> batsman as long as
> > > > >>> > there were doubts. I think
> it is
> > > baseless and
> > > > >>> irresponsible to give a state
> > > > >>> > clean chit just because it
> sounds
> > > progressive and
> > > > >>> broad minded to do so. I
> > > > >>> > wouldn't object if you
> were to
> > > say that even India
> > > > >>> has links with Jihadi
> > > > >>> > elements which Pakistan
> claims India
> > > uses to
> > > > >>> destabilize Pakistan. But I
> > > > >>> > will definitely not agree
> with the
> > > claim that
> > > > >>> Pakistani state has no nexus
> > > > >>> > with jihadi elements which
> have
> > > unfurling Pakistani
> > > > >>> flag on Red fort as
> > > > >>> > their stated aim.
> > > > >>> > ----- Original Message
> ----- From:
> > > "Aman
> > > > >>> Sethi"
> <aman.am at gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > To: "sarai list"
> > > > >>> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > >>> > Sent: Monday, January 05,
> 2009 5:05
> > > PM
> > > > >>> > Subject: [Reader-list]
> Myths,Mangoes
> > > and ordered
> > > > >>> houses - re: 10 myths about
> > > > >>> > pakistan
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >> Dear All -
> particularly Javed,
> > > (who I thank for
> > > > >>> posting this text) and
> > > > >>> >> Taraprakash and Yasir
> -for their
> > > thoughts,
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> This is in response to
> a
> > > conversation on the
> > > > >>> authenticity/
> > > > >>> >>
> "insightfullness" of
> > > Mohammed
> > > > >>> Hanif's text that appeared
> in the
> > > Times
> > > > >>> >> of India in the Times
> of India
> > > -and I have
> > > > >>> appended at the end of this
> > > > >>> >> mail.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> I think the reason I
> find
> > > Mohammed Hanif's
> > > > >>> text (appended below)
> > > > >>> >> interesting is
> primarily because
> > > often when
> > > > >>> reading/learning about
> > > > >>> >> another place -
> especially
> > > through the eyes of
> > > > >>> correspondents - it is
> > > > >>> >> hard to imagine how
> anyone lives
> > > there at all. For
> > > > >>> weeks I have been
> > > > >>> >> having conversation
> with friends
> > > about how
> > > > >>> pakistan appears to be
> > > > >>> >> teetering on a brink
> of some
> > > sort - without really
> > > > >>> knowing that that
> > > > >>> >> brink is - how deep
> the chasm is
> > > - is it in the
> > > > >>> chasm already - what
> > > > >>> >> does it means to be in
> the chasm
> > > - or is there no
> > > > >>> brink, no teetering,
> > > > >>> >> no nothing except to
> the grind
> > > of the everyday.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> But fortunately, i
> have also
> > > been re-reading
> > > > >>> Slaughterhouse Five -
> > > > >>> >> Kurt Vonnegut's
> book on the
> > > dresden
> > > > >>> fire-bombing in WWII where,
> after
> > > > >>> >> describing the
> devastation of
> > > dresden as a
> > > > >>> moonscape utterly ravaged
> > > > >>> >> by carpet bombs, he
> writes
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> "Billy's
> story ended
> > > very curiously in a
> > > > >>> suburb untouched by fire and
> > > > >>> >> explosions. The guards
> and
> > > americans came at
> > > > >>> nightfall to an innn
> > > > >>> >> which was open for
> business.
> > > There was
> > > > >>> candlelight. There were fires
> > > > >>> >> in three fireplaces
> downstairs.
> > > There were empty
> > > > >>> tables ad chairs
> > > > >>> >> waiting for anyone who
> might
> > > come, and empty beds
> > > > >>> with covers turned
> > > > >>> >> down upstairs."
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> On reading texts like
> > > Slaughterhouse Five - or
> > > > >>> Sebal's incredible
> > > > >>> >> Natural History of
> Destruction
> > > there is the
> > > > >>> tendency to abstract trite
> > > > >>> >> observations like
> "ordinary
> > > people continue
> > > > >>> with their normal lives
> > > > >>> >> even as the world
> collapses
> > > around them." I
> > > > >>> would argue that what
> > > > >>> >> makes these texts
> interesting
> > > -and relevant - is
> > > > >>> that they remind us
> > > > >>> >> that this IS normal
> life. This
> > > horror, this
> > > > >>> destruction, this
> > > > >>> >> banality, this IS
> normal life.
> > > And Mohammed
> > > > >>> Hanif's text - (without
> > > > >>> >> placing it in the same
> league) -
> > > again gives us a
> > > > >>> snapshot into the
> > > > >>> >> normalcy of normal
> life in
> > > pakistan.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Reading the news on
> the series
> > > of bomb blasts in
> > > > >>> Delhi, Surat,
> > > > >>> >> Bangalore and
> elsewhere through
> > > the fall of 2008 -
> > > > >>> one is tempted to
> > > > >>> >> read the same spiral
> of chaos,
> > > the horror of
> > > > >>> implosion and the
> > > > >>> >> embarrassment of
> "state
> > > failure" that
> > > > >>> Indians so happily foist upon
> > > > >>> >> neighbouring
> countries. But as
> > > those living in
> > > > >>> India will readily
> > > > >>> >> testify; it certainly
> doesnt
> > > seem so - no matter
> > > > >>> what the disaster, we
> > > > >>> >> are firm in our belief
> that
> > > -like the batsman in
> > > > >>> cricket - the
> > > > >>> >> endurance of the state
> should be
> > > given the benefit
> > > > >>> of doubt. Perhaps
> > > > >>> >> we could accord others
> in the
> > > neighbourhood the
> > > > >>> same privileges.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> The story of the
> americans and
> > > the innkeepers ends
> > > > >>> something like this :
> > > > >>> >> "The Blind
> innkeeper said
> > > that the americans
> > > > >>> could sleep in his stable
> > > > >>> >> that night, and he
> gave them
> > > soup and ersatz
> > > > >>> coffee and a little beer.
> > > > >>> >> Then he came out to
> the stable
> > > to listen to them
> > > > >>> bedding down in the
> > > > >>> >> straw.
> > > > >>> >> "Good Night
> > > Americans," he said in
> > > > >>> German, "Sleep well."
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> best
> > > > >>> >> a.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Ten myths about
> Pakistan
> > > > >>> >> 4 Jan 2009, 0032 hrs
> IST,
> > > > >>> >> Mohammed Hanif
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Living in Pakistan and
> reading
> > > about it in the
> > > > >>> Indian press can
> > > > >>> >> sometimes be quite a
> > > disorienting experience: one
> > > > >>> wonders what place
> > > > >>> >> on earth they're
> talking
> > > about? I wouldn't
> > > > >>> be surprised if an Indian
> > > > >>> >> reader going through
> Pakistani
> > > papers has asked
> > > > >>> the same question in
> > > > >>> >> recent days. Here are
> some
> > > common assumptions
> > > > >>> about Pakistan and its
> > > > >>> >> citizens that I have
> come across
> > > in the Indian
> > > > >>> media...
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Pakistan controls the
> jihadis:
> > > Or Pakistan's
> > > > >>> government controls the
> > > > >>> >> jihadis. Or Pakistan
> Army
> > > controls the jihadis. Or
> > > > >>> ISI controls the
> > > > >>> >> jihadis. Or some rogue
> elements
> > > from the ISI
> > > > >>> control the Jihadis.
> > > > >>> >> Nobody knows the whole
> truth but
> > > increasingly
> > > > >>> it's the tail that wags
> > > > >>> >> the dog. We must
> remember that
> > > the ISI-Jihadi
> > > > >>> alliance was a marriage
> > > > >>> >> of convenience, which
> has broken
> > > down irrevocably.
> > > > >>> Pakistan army has
> > > > >>> >> lost more soldiers at
> the hands
> > > of these jihadis
> > > > >>> than it ever did
> > > > >>> >> fighting India.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Musharraf was in
> control,
> > > Zardari is not:
> > > > >>> Let's not forget that
> > > > >>> >> General Musharraf
> seized power
> > > after he was fired
> > > > >>> from his job as the
> > > > >>> >> army chief by an
> elected prime
> > > minister. Musharraf
> > > > >>> first appeased
> > > > >>> >> jihadis, then bombed
> them, and
> > > then appeased them
> > > > >>> again. The country
> > > > >>> >> he left behind has
> become a very
> > > dangerous place,
> > > > >>> above all for its
> > > > >>> >> own citizens. There is
> a latent
> > > hankering in
> > > > >>> sections of the Indian
> > > > >>> >> middle class for a
> strongman.
> > > Give Manmohan Singh
> > > > >>> a military uniform,
> > > > >>> >> put all the armed
> forces under
> > > his direct command,
> > > > >>> make his word the
> > > > >>> >> law of the land, and
> he too will
> > > go around
> > > > >>> thumping his chest saying
> > > > >>> >> that it's his
> destiny to
> > > save India from
> > > > >>> Indians . Zardari will never
> > > > >>> >> have the kind of
> control that
> > > Musharraf had. But
> > > > >>> Pakistanis do not
> > > > >>> >> want another
> Musharraf.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Pakistan, which
> Pakistan? For a
> > > small country,
> > > > >>> Pakistan is very
> > > > >>> >> diverse, not only
> ethnically but
> > > politically as
> > > > >>> well. General
> > > > >>> >> Musharraf's
> government
> > > bombed Pashtuns in the
> > > > >>> north for being
> > > > >>> >> Islamists and close to
> the
> > > Taliban and at the same
> > > > >>> time it bombed
> > > > >>> >> Balochs in the South
> for NOT
> > > being Islamists and
> > > > >>> for subscribing to
> > > > >>> >> some kind of
> retro-socialist,
> > > anti Taliban ethos.
> > > > >>> You have probably
> > > > >>> >> heard the joke about
> other
> > > countries having armies
> > > > >>> but Pakistan's army
> > > > >>> >> having a country.
> Nobody in
> > > Pakistan finds it
> > > > >>> funny.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Pakistan and its loose
> nukes:
> > > Pakistan's
> > > > >>> nuclear programme is under a
> > > > >>> >> sophisticated command
> and
> > > control system, no more
> > > > >>> under threat than
> > > > >>> >> India or Israel's
> nuclear
> > > assets are
> > > > >>> threatened by Hindu or Jewish
> > > > >>> >> extremists. For a long
> time
> > > Pakistan's
> > > > >>> security establishment's
> other
> > > > >>> >> strategic asset was
> jihadi
> > > organisations, which in
> > > > >>> the last couple of
> > > > >>> >> years have become its
> biggest
> > > liability.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Pakistan is a failed
> state: If
> > > it is, then
> > > > >>> Pakistanis have not
> > > > >>> >> noticed. Or they have
> lived in
> > > it for such a long
> > > > >>> time that they have
> > > > >>> >> become used to its
> dysfunctional
> > > aspects. Trains
> > > > >>> are late but they
> > > > >>> >> turn up, there are
> more VJs,
> > > DJs, theatre
> > > > >>> festivals, melas, and
> > > > >>> >> fashion models than a
> failed
> > > state can
> > > > >>> accommodate. To borrow a phrase
> > > > >>> >> from President
> Zardari, there
> > > are lots of
> > > > >>> non-state actors like Abdul
> > > > >>> >> Sattar Edhi who
> provide
> > > emergency health services,
> > > > >>> orphanages and
> > > > >>> >> shelters for sick
> animals.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> It is a deeply
> religious
> > > country: Every
> > > > >>> half-decent election in this
> > > > >>> >> country has proved
> otherwise.
> > > Religious parties
> > > > >>> have never won more
> > > > >>> >> than a fraction of
> popular vote.
> > > Last year
> > > > >>> Pakistan witnessed the
> > > > >>> >> largest civil rights
> movements
> > > in the history of
> > > > >>> this region. It was
> > > > >>> >> spontaneous, secular
> and
> > > entirely peaceful. But
> > > > >>> since people weren't
> > > > >>> >> raising anti-India or
> > > anti-America slogans, nobody
> > > > >>> outside Pakistan
> > > > >>> >> took much notice.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> All Pakistanis hate
> India: Three
> > > out of four
> > > > >>> provinces in Pakistan -
> > > > >>> >> Sindh, Baluchistan,
> NWFP - have
> > > never had any
> > > > >>> popular anti-India
> > > > >>> >> sentiment ever.
> Punjabis who did
> > > impose India as
> > > > >>> enemy-in-chief on
> > > > >>> >> Pakistan are now more
> interested
> > > in selling
> > > > >>> potatoes to India than
> > > > >>> >> destroying it. There
> is a new
> > > breed of al-Qaida
> > > > >>> inspired jihadis who
> > > > >>> >> hate a woman walking
> on the
> > > streets of Karachi as
> > > > >>> much as they hate a
> > > > >>> >> woman driving a car on
> the
> > > streets of Delhi. In
> > > > >>> fact there is not much
> > > > >>> >> that they do not hate:
> they hate
> > > America, Denmark,
> > > > >>> China CDs, barbers,
> > > > >>> >> DVDs , television,
> even
> > > football. Imran Khan
> > > > >>> recently said that these
> > > > >>> >> jihadis will never
> attack a
> > > cricket match but
> > > > >>> nobody takes him
> > > > >>> >> seriously.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Training camps: There
> are
> > > militant sanctuaries in
> > > > >>> the tribal areas of
> > > > >>> >> Pakistan but
> definitely not in
> > > Muzaffarabad or
> > > > >>> Muridke, two favourite
> > > > >>> >> targets for Indian
> journalists,
> > > probably because
> > > > >>> those are the cities
> > > > >>> >> they have ever been
> allowed to
> > > visit. After all
> > > > >>> how much training do
> > > > >>> >> you need if you are
> going to
> > > shoot at random
> > > > >>> civilians or blow
> > > > >>> >> yourself up in a
> crowded bazaar?
> > > So if anyone
> > > > >>> thinks a few missiles
> > > > >>> >> targeted at
> Muzaffarabad will
> > > teach anyone a
> > > > >>> lesson, they should
> > > > >>> >> switch off their TV
> and try to
> > > locate it on the
> > > > >>> map.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> RAW would never do
> what ISI
> > > does: Both the
> > > > >>> agencies have had a
> > > > >>> >> brilliant record of
> creating
> > > mayhem in the
> > > > >>> neighbouring countries.
> > > > >>> >> Both have a dismal
> record when
> > > it comes to
> > > > >>> protecting their own
> > > > >>> >> people. There is a
> simple reason
> > > that ISI is a
> > > > >>> bigger, more notorious
> > > > >>> >> brand name: It was
> CIA's
> > > franchise during the
> > > > >>> jihad against the
> > > > >>> >> Soviets. And now
> it's busy
> > > doing jihad against
> > > > >>> those very jihadis.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> Pakistan is poor,
> India is rich:
> > > Pakistanis
> > > > >>> visiting India till the
> > > > >>> >> mid-eighties came back
> very
> > > smug. They told us
> > > > >>> about India's slums,
> > > > >>> >> and that there was
> nothing to
> > > buy except
> > > > >>> handicrafts and saris. Then
> > > > >>> >> Pakistanis could say
> with
> > > justifiable pride that
> > > > >>> nobody slept hungry
> > > > >>> >> in their country. But
> now, not
> > > only do people
> > > > >>> sleep hungry in both the
> > > > >>> >> countries, they also
> commit
> > > suicide because they
> > > > >>> see nothing but a
> > > > >>> >> lifetime of hunger
> ahead. A
> > > debt-ridden farmer
> > > > >>> contemplating suicide
> > > > >>> >> in Maharashtra and a
> mother who
> > > abandons her
> > > > >>> children in Karachi
> > > > >>> >> because she can't
> feed them:
> > > this is what we
> > > > >>> have achieved in our
> > > > >>> >> mutual desire to teach
> each
> > > other a lesson.
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >> The writer is the
> author of
> > > 'A Case of
> > > > >>> Exploding Mangoes'
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>> >>
> > > > >>>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Sunday_TOI/Ten_myths_about_Pakistan/articleshow/3932145.cms
> > > > >>> >>
> > > _________________________________________
> > > > >>> >> reader-list: an open
> discussion
> > > list on media and
> > > > >>> the city.
> > > > >>> >> Critiques &
> Collaborations
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> > >
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> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>>
> _________________________________________
> > > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion
> list on
> > > media and the city.
> > > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to
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> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > _________________________________________
> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on
> media and the
> > > city.
> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
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