[Reader-list] Is peace and reconciliation an illusion?

Rahul Asthana rahul_capri at yahoo.com
Sun Jan 25 12:03:30 IST 2009 

Dear Yousuf,
I would argue that people to people contact is just a feel good exercise.Till Pak govt is not made to give up its policy of cross border terrorism,people to people contact would achieve diddly squat.National narratives can be managed and are being managed.Anyway,if you do realize that other means are necessary then we have sufficient agreement.
Now coming to Taha's post.I had decided earlier that interacting with him is a waste of bandwidth and everybody's time.Last time he wanted to be educated about Pakistan.This time he wants an education in statistics and sampling.Everybody should try to educate themselves first.Hand holding should not be encouraged.Anyway, please go through this link.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/jan/20obama-survey-india.htm
"As many as 17,356 adult citizens across 17 countries were interviewed in this survey conducted for the BBC World service by the international polling firm GlobeScan together with the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland."
I think even Taha can do the math.
Yousof, now that I have responded to Taha's query for a precedent on your request,will you please take any further statistics and sampling related questions on my behalf?

Thank you
Rahul

--- On Sun, 1/25/09, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and reconciliation an illusion?
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>, rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com
> Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 10:36 AM
> Dear Rahul
> I agree that we certainly cannot allow more Indians to be
> killed while Pakistan is "treated". But there is
> always a long term and short term strategy required. I as a
> citizen don't have the resources to get involved in the
> short term and "surgical" treatment (which some
> may call war). I can only think of my involvement in the
> long-term and slow healing process which is the
> people-to-people contact. If the people who are preaching
> terror against the so-called kafirs
> (India/Hindu/America/Israel etc.) get a real opportunity to
> meet such people and sit down and talk, they may realize
> that not everyone is evil, they'll probably change their
> approach. This is the only way situations are controlled in
> every war and violent confrontations. Yes I agree everyone
> needs to get realistic, including you. You haven't
> responded to Taha's findings that the Karachi survey was
> a reflection of just a few hundred people in a population of
> lakhs. 
> 
> Yousuf
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Rahul Asthana
> <rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and reconciliation
> an illusion?
> > To: "sarai list"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>, "Peace Initiative"
> <peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com>, ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com, edit at hindustantimes.com
> > Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 3:10 AM
> > Dear Yousuf,
> > 
> > "I am sure if we do a survey in India, an equal
> number
> > of people will say Islam and Muslims need to be
> eradicated
> > from the face of the earth."
> > I agree.
> > "But my point is, is a long-term solution to
> terror
> > possible
> > by simply attacking Pakistan or blaming its
> govt."
> > I agree again about the first part.I am not advocating
> > war.But I fail to see why the Pakistan govt should not
> be
> > blamed when it is continues to let LET-JUD flourish
> and
> > carry out terror attacks on India.Its recent flip
> flops on
> > the issue of Ajmal Kasab and many other statements
> related
> > to the Mumbai blasts may tell you how sincere they are
> in
> > curbing LET-the so called non-state actors flourishing
> with
> > the support of the establishment.
> > "If someone is sick, do you try to treat that
> person,
> > or do you  kill him so that his disease doesn't
> afflict
> > you. That's the choice we have to make."
> > Thats what I asked you in the earlier mail.Contrary to
> > anything that I can see,lets assume that the person
> does
> > want to be "treated".How do you plan to
> > "treat that person"? Are you ready to accept
> the
> > inevitable terror attacks and more dead Indians while
> the
> > "treatment" is going on?
> > I do not have any reason to believe that majority of
> > Pakistanis are similar to majority of Indians.As I
> have
> > written earlier,even if that were the case,that would
> not
> > solve anything till Pak establishment keeps supporting
> > LET-JUD and LET-JUD has access to funds.
> > In my humble opinion, Pak army uses the state in the
> way
> > that it pleases,for its own benefits.You can see what
> it has
> > done to the people in NWFP and Swat in return for the
> money
> > it receives from the US.It will never completely
> eradicate
> > Taliban because that's its cash cow.The poor
> people in
> > NWFP and swat are facing US bombings on one hand and
> > Talibans version of brutal Islam on the other
> hand,while all
> > the time the Pak army is receiving more funds from the
> US.
> > Again, in my humble opinion, the Pak policies of
> > propagating international terrorism will not end
> unless and
> > until there is an existential threat to the army.Its
> just
> > too profitable a business for them.
> > I will reiterate,I am not batting for the
> warmongers.But
> > the peaceniks should at least frame the debate
> > realistically.Just ignoring the realities and
> insisting on
> > friendship would not stop terror attacks and push us
> closer
> > towards war.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Rahul
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and
> reconciliation
> > an illusion?
> > > To: "sarai list"
> > <reader-list at sarai.net>, "Peace
> Initiative"
> > <peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com>,
> > rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> > > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com,
> edit at hindustantimes.com
> > > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 8:06 PM
> > > Dear Rahul
> > > The result of the survey you mentioned must be
> true -
> > I
> > > will not contest that. I am sure if we do a
> survey in
> > India,
> > > an equal number of people will say Islam and
> Muslims
> > need to
> > > be eradicated from the face of the earth. Same
> result
> > may
> > > come up in America or elsewhere. People are not
> born
> > with
> > > those answers for the surveys - they are
> brainwashed. 
> > > 
> > > One of the delegates that arrived from Pakistan
> early
> > this
> > > week said, "Kasab is really a butcher, but
> he
> > won't
> > > have become a terrorist if there was a school in
> his
> > > village". I think that says a lot about the
> > situation
> > > in Pakistan. But we would not appreciate this
> because
> > for us
> > > they are an enemy - "to hell with them if
> they
> > > don't have schools in their village". 
> > > 
> > > But my point is, is a long-term solution to
> terror
> > possible
> > > by simply attacking Pakistan or blaming its govt.
> Was
> > the
> > > might of America able to eradicate Al-Qaeda by
> > crushing
> > > Afghanistan and Iraq? Hasn't the situation
> become
> > worse
> > > now? Can we overlook the socio-cultural
> complexities
> > of our
> > > region. Maybe the Karachi folks that were
> interviewed
> > in the
> > > survey have never met an Indian or a Hindu. The
> only
> > image
> > > that their education system has given them of
> India is
> > that
> > > of an enemy. A violent confrontation will only
> > strengthen
> > > that image for them (and for us about them). But
> I
> > agree
> > > that just a people-to-people contact is not the
> only
> > > effective solution - but it can probably help in
> > improving
> > > the results of those surveys in each other's
> > favour. If
> > > someone is sick, do you try to treat that person,
> or
> > do you
> > > kill him so that his disease doesn't afflict
> you.
> > > That's the choice we have to make.
> > > 
> > > Yousuf
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Rahul Asthana
> > > <rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > From: Rahul Asthana
> <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and
> > reconciliation
> > > an illusion?
> > > > To: "sarai list"
> > > <reader-list at sarai.net>, "Peace
> > Initiative"
> > > <peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com>,
> > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> > > > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com,
> > > editor at hindustantimes.com
> > > > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 7:13 PM
> > > > Dear Yousuf,
> > > > Have you come across this survey published
> in a
> > > Pakistani
> > > > newspaper?
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://karachi.metblogs.com/2008/08/28/15-in-karachi-back-suicide-bombers-study/
> > > > "Fifteen percent of participants in the
> > > Karachi-based
> > > > study supported suicide bombing and said
> that
> > Islam
> > > and
> > > > other religions supported it."
> > > > "However, nearly 50 percent of all
> those
> > surveyed
> > > in
> > > > Karachi believed that suicide bombing was
> > acceptable
> > > in
> > > > Palestine, Kashmir and Lebanon."
> > > > Mind you, this is Karachi,probably the most
> > > cosmopolitan of
> > > > all Pak cities.
> > > > You probably know Pakistan better than me,so
> can
> > you
> > > > comment if I am wrong in my assumption that
> there
> > is
> > > > probably no other place in Pakistan that can
> be
> > > expected to
> > > > have lower numbers than Karachi in the
> questions
> > > polled.
> > > > Do you think this is a significant
> difference?
> > How do
> > > you
> > > > plan to bridge this divide? 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Rahul
> > > > 
> > > > --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Yousuf
> > <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Is peace and
> > > reconciliation an
> > > > illusion?
> > > > > To: "sarai list"
> > > > <reader-list at sarai.net>, "Peace
> > > Initiative"
> > > > <peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com,
> > > > editor at hindustantimes.com
> > > > > Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 3:25 PM
> > > > > Here is a letter I wrote in response to
> an
> > HT
> > > article
> > > > > (copied at bottom):
> > > > > -----
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dear Kumkum Chadha
> > > > > Reading the war-cry in your write-up I
> am
> > > wondering if
> > > > this
> > > > > is the same country which produced
> Gandhi,
> > Kabir,
> > > > Buddha and
> > > > > such non-violent people. While you find
> the
> > job
> > > of the
> > > > > “peaceniks” futile and a waste of
> time,
> > I
> > > found
> > > > your
> > > > > write-up a bit confusing. Today, a
> large
> > number
> > > of
> > > > people on
> > > > > both sides of the border are fed up
> with
> > terror
> > > and
> > > > violence
> > > > > and are anxious for a workable
> solution. But
> > much
> > > of
> > > > your
> > > > > essay is an extremely pessimistic
> attack on
> > such
> > > > people who
> > > > > try to channelize their angst into
> > productive and
> > > > positive
> > > > > use. You doubt the very intentions of
> the
> > people
> > > who
> > > > > genuinely want peace. If you are
> proposing
> > that
> > > all
> > > > efforts
> > > > > of peace and reconciliation and the
> > > people-to-people
> > > > contact
> > > > > between India and Pakistan be shut and
> > replaced
> > > simply
> > > > by a
> > > > > cold “co-existence”, how exactly do
> you
> > > define
> > > > this
> > > > > co-existence? Aren’t we co-existing
> right
> > now?
> > > How
> > > > can a
> > > > > bonhomie harm this co-existence? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I agree that the page-3 kebab parties
> > between
> > > Indian
> > > > and
> > > > > Pakistani activists do not serve any
> > purpose, but
> > > I
> > > > found
> > > > > your statement that there are actually
> no
> > > > commonalities
> > > > > between the culture of India and
> Pakistan
> > rather
> > > > juvenile.
> > > > > If India and Pakistan should be hostile
> to
> > each
> > > other
> > > > > because they are culturally dissimilar,
> then
> > we
> > > should
> > > > have
> > > > > a million more partitions within India
> due
> > to our
> > > > cultural
> > > > > differences.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think the efforts of peace activists
> of
> > the two
> > > > countries
> > > > > have remained less effective so far
> because
> > their
> > > > reach has
> > > > > been limited to Delhi, Amritsar or
> Lahore
> > only.
> > > If
> > > > they
> > > > > reached smaller and remote places such
> as
> > > Gorakhpur,
> > > > > Piparia, Abbotabad and Faisalabad, and
> meet
> > the
> > > > ordinary
> > > > > people, they’ll probably be able to
> > understand
> > > each
> > > > other
> > > > > better and realize that not everyone in
> > these
> > > > countries
> > > > > wants war. When you say that there is
> “an
> > > > irreparable
> > > > > divide, and the attempts to bridge it
> are
> > both
> > > > unrealistic
> > > > > and impossible”, I think the divide
> has
> > been
> > > created
> > > > by
> > > > > the governments and writers like you.
> The
> > > ordinary
> > > > people of
> > > > > the two countries are the only ones who
> can
> > > bridge
> > > > this
> > > > > divide, if you stop writing such
> nonsense.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yousuf Saeed
> > > > > New Delhi
> > > > > 
> > > > > (on behalf of many friends in India and
> > Pakistan
> > > who
> > > > will
> > > > > continue to strive for peace, dialogue
> and
> > > > reconciliation)
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > We’re not all in it together
> > > > > Kumkum Chadha, Hindustan Times
> > > > > January 22, 2009
> > > > > 
> > > > > With tension between India and Pakistan
> > > escalating,
> > > > the
> > > > > self-appointed ambassadors of peace
> have
> > their
> > > hands
> > > > full.
> > > > > Irrespective of the inappropriateness
> of
> > > marketing
> > > > peace at
> > > > > a time when India has yet to come to
> terms
> > with
> > > 26/11,
> > > > > peaceniks on both sides are overactive.
> Last
> > week
> > > a
> > > > > Pakistani delegation landed in Amritsar
> with
> > a
> > > banner
> > > > of
> > > > > friendship; another is invading Delhi
> to
> > talk
> > > peace.
> > > > Worse
> > > > > still, their Indian counterparts held
> > meetings to
> > > > ensure
> > > > > that their peace mission was a roaring
> > success,
> > > apart
> > > > from
> > > > > warmly welcoming them on Indian soil.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Each time Indians visit Pakistan or
> they us,
> > they
> > > are
> > > > > visibly gushing with emotion. Both make
> > endless
> > > > comparisons
> > > > > and list commonalities in food, dress,
> > language,
> > > > culture and
> > > > > of course history. Politically correct,
> but
> > > untrue
> > > > because
> > > > > there are distinct differences  in the
> > respective
> > > > cuisines,
> > > > > languages, festivals, customs, rituals
> and
> > > religion.
> > > > What
> > > > > are common are the scars of Partition
> and a
> > > > blood-stained
> > > > > divide: facts which peaceniks pretend
> do not
> > > exist as
> > > > they
> > > > > exchange garlands and bear hugs, while
> > pining for
> > > a
> > > > no-visa
> > > > > regime. It’s all very well to savour
> > kebabs and
> > > > hosting
> > > > > lavish dinners. But scratch the surface
> and
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > acrimony: raw wounds that have little
> chance
> > of
> > > > healing.
> > > > > Mention Kashmir or terrorism and
> positions
> > > harden.
> > > > Then it
> > > > > is ‘you versus us’ rather than
> ‘you
> > and
> > > us’.
> > > > > 
> > > > > So even while President Asif Ali
> Zardari
> > tried to
> > > > charm
> > > > > Indians at the HT summit by saying that
> > there is
> > > a
> > > > little
> > > > > bit of India in every Pakistani and
> vice
> > versa,
> > > the
> > > > truth is
> > > > > that there is no love lost between the
> two.
> > It is
> > > rare
> > > > to
> > > > > find an Indian warming up to a
> Pakistani.
> > However
> > > hard
> > > > we
> > > > > may try, we cannot wish away the mutual
> > suspicion
> > > > sealed by
> > > > > history. There is an irreparable divide
> and
> > > attempts
> > > > to
> > > > > bridge it are both unrealistic and
> > impossible.
> > > > Marching to
> > > > > the Wagah border to light candles for
> peace
> > is at
> > > best
> > > > a
> > > > > goodwill gesture with no tangible
> results.
> > In
> > > other
> > > > words, a
> > > > > waste of time. Consequently when an
> enraged
> > > Pranab
> > > > > Mukherjee, India’s Foreign Minister,
> sheds
> > > diplomacy
> > > > and
> > > > > cries war, he cannot be faulted.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This being the ground reality, it is
> time to
> > shed
> > > > > superficial bonhomie and get real, and
> > abandon
> > > the
> > > > song and
> > > > > dance about friendship. We need to be
> > brutally
> > > honest
> > > > and
> > > > > change tack from a focus on peace to
> > > co-existence. It
> > > > is
> > > > > compulsions of geography and not bonds
> of
> > history
> > > that
> > > > force
> > > > > us to live side by side. Replacing
> peace
> > with
> > > > co-existence
> > > > > will also help end the
> “like-mindedness”
> > > theory
> > > > and
> > > > > reveal common meeting points in place
> of
> > > non-workable
> > > > > alliances. It will end pretensions
> about
> > > camaraderie
> > > > and
> > > > > help us face reality: however hard,
> bitter
> > and
> > > brutal
> > > > it may
> > > > > be. Once minds are re-scripted, it will
> be
> > much
> > > easier
> > > > to
> > > > > tackle the inherent acrimony bordering
> on
> > > aggression.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Erase the friendship logo and there
> could be
> > a
> > > road
> > > > ahead;
> > > > > abandon the thought of jointly treading
> the
> > path
> > > and
> > > > > solutions could be on the anvil. But
> break
> > bread
> > > > together
> > > > > and it is a non- starter because
> despite the
> > > kebabs
> > > > and
> > > > > candles, terror attacks and a volatile
> > Indo-Pak
> > > border
> > > > are
> > > > > the order of the day.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The only casualty here would be the
> > peaceniks.
> > > Not
> > > > only
> > > > > will they be out of work but will be
> > unwilling to
> > > > accept
> > > > > that what they have been marketing all
> these
> > > years is
> > > > an
> > > > > illusion.
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=9e445e0d-ecff-4fe5-a9fe-79b28e821def
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >       
> > > > >
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