[Reader-list] Is peace and reconciliation an illusion?

Sun Jan 25 17:12:39 IST 2009

If people-contact is a feel-good exercise, then even war is, for us. Because both will achieve nothing. Yes Pak govt. is to be held responsible for all ills, the same way as we say our roads are bad because of the govt., the garbage is piling up on the street because of the government, and so on. We are trying to find simple solutions for complex problems. Any way, I am not a spokesperson of the Pak or Indian govt. but I would prefer reconciliation rather than more violence.

Yousuf

--- On Sun, 1/25/09, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and reconciliation an illusion?
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>, ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com
> Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 12:03 PM
> Dear Yousuf,
> I would argue that people to people contact is just a feel
> good exercise.Till Pak govt is not made to give up its
> policy of cross border terrorism,people to people contact
> would achieve diddly squat.National narratives can be
> managed and are being managed.Anyway,if you do realize that
> other means are necessary then we have sufficient agreement.
> Now coming to Taha's post.I had decided earlier that
> interacting with him is a waste of bandwidth and
> everybody's time.Last time he wanted to be educated
> about Pakistan.This time he wants an education in statistics
> and sampling.Everybody should try to educate themselves
> first.Hand holding should not be encouraged.Anyway, please
> go through this link.
> http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/jan/20obama-survey-india.htm
> "As many as 17,356 adult citizens across 17 countries
> were interviewed in this survey conducted for the BBC World
> service by the international polling firm GlobeScan together
> with the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the
> University of Maryland."
> I think even Taha can do the math.
> Yousof, now that I have responded to Taha's query for a
> precedent on your request,will you please take any further
> statistics and sampling related questions on my behalf?
> 
> Thank you
> Rahul
> 
> --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and reconciliation
> an illusion?
> > To: "sarai list"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>, rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com
> > Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 10:36 AM
> > Dear Rahul
> > I agree that we certainly cannot allow more Indians to
> be
> > killed while Pakistan is "treated". But
> there is
> > always a long term and short term strategy required. I
> as a
> > citizen don't have the resources to get involved
> in the
> > short term and "surgical" treatment (which
> some
> > may call war). I can only think of my involvement in
> the
> > long-term and slow healing process which is the
> > people-to-people contact. If the people who are
> preaching
> > terror against the so-called kafirs
> > (India/Hindu/America/Israel etc.) get a real
> opportunity to
> > meet such people and sit down and talk, they may
> realize
> > that not everyone is evil, they'll probably change
> their
> > approach. This is the only way situations are
> controlled in
> > every war and violent confrontations. Yes I agree
> everyone
> > needs to get realistic, including you. You haven't
> > responded to Taha's findings that the Karachi
> survey was
> > a reflection of just a few hundred people in a
> population of
> > lakhs. 
> > 
> > Yousuf
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Rahul Asthana
> > <rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and
> reconciliation
> > an illusion?
> > > To: "sarai list"
> > <reader-list at sarai.net>, "Peace
> Initiative"
> > <peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com>,
> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> > > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com,
> edit at hindustantimes.com
> > > Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 3:10 AM
> > > Dear Yousuf,
> > > 
> > > "I am sure if we do a survey in India, an
> equal
> > number
> > > of people will say Islam and Muslims need to be
> > eradicated
> > > from the face of the earth."
> > > I agree.
> > > "But my point is, is a long-term solution to
> > terror
> > > possible
> > > by simply attacking Pakistan or blaming its
> > govt."
> > > I agree again about the first part.I am not
> advocating
> > > war.But I fail to see why the Pakistan govt
> should not
> > be
> > > blamed when it is continues to let LET-JUD
> flourish
> > and
> > > carry out terror attacks on India.Its recent flip
> > flops on
> > > the issue of Ajmal Kasab and many other
> statements
> > related
> > > to the Mumbai blasts may tell you how sincere
> they are
> > in
> > > curbing LET-the so called non-state actors
> flourishing
> > with
> > > the support of the establishment.
> > > "If someone is sick, do you try to treat
> that
> > person,
> > > or do you  kill him so that his disease
> doesn't
> > afflict
> > > you. That's the choice we have to make."
> > > Thats what I asked you in the earlier
> mail.Contrary to
> > > anything that I can see,lets assume that the
> person
> > does
> > > want to be "treated".How do you plan to
> > > "treat that person"? Are you ready to
> accept
> > the
> > > inevitable terror attacks and more dead Indians
> while
> > the
> > > "treatment" is going on?
> > > I do not have any reason to believe that majority
> of
> > > Pakistanis are similar to majority of Indians.As
> I
> > have
> > > written earlier,even if that were the case,that
> would
> > not
> > > solve anything till Pak establishment keeps
> supporting
> > > LET-JUD and LET-JUD has access to funds.
> > > In my humble opinion, Pak army uses the state in
> the
> > way
> > > that it pleases,for its own benefits.You can see
> what
> > it has
> > > done to the people in NWFP and Swat in return for
> the
> > money
> > > it receives from the US.It will never completely
> > eradicate
> > > Taliban because that's its cash cow.The poor
> > people in
> > > NWFP and swat are facing US bombings on one hand
> and
> > > Talibans version of brutal Islam on the other
> > hand,while all
> > > the time the Pak army is receiving more funds
> from the
> > US.
> > > Again, in my humble opinion, the Pak policies of
> > > propagating international terrorism will not end
> > unless and
> > > until there is an existential threat to the
> army.Its
> > just
> > > too profitable a business for them.
> > > I will reiterate,I am not batting for the
> > warmongers.But
> > > the peaceniks should at least frame the debate
> > > realistically.Just ignoring the realities and
> > insisting on
> > > friendship would not stop terror attacks and push
> us
> > closer
> > > towards war.
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > Rahul
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Yousuf
> <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and
> > reconciliation
> > > an illusion?
> > > > To: "sarai list"
> > > <reader-list at sarai.net>, "Peace
> > Initiative"
> > > <peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com>,
> > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> > > > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com,
> > edit at hindustantimes.com
> > > > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 8:06 PM
> > > > Dear Rahul
> > > > The result of the survey you mentioned must
> be
> > true -
> > > I
> > > > will not contest that. I am sure if we do a
> > survey in
> > > India,
> > > > an equal number of people will say Islam and
> > Muslims
> > > need to
> > > > be eradicated from the face of the earth.
> Same
> > result
> > > may
> > > > come up in America or elsewhere. People are
> not
> > born
> > > with
> > > > those answers for the surveys - they are
> > brainwashed. 
> > > > 
> > > > One of the delegates that arrived from
> Pakistan
> > early
> > > this
> > > > week said, "Kasab is really a butcher,
> but
> > he
> > > won't
> > > > have become a terrorist if there was a
> school in
> > his
> > > > village". I think that says a lot about
> the
> > > situation
> > > > in Pakistan. But we would not appreciate
> this
> > because
> > > for us
> > > > they are an enemy - "to hell with them
> if
> > they
> > > > don't have schools in their
> village". 
> > > > 
> > > > But my point is, is a long-term solution to
> > terror
> > > possible
> > > > by simply attacking Pakistan or blaming its
> govt.
> > Was
> > > the
> > > > might of America able to eradicate Al-Qaeda
> by
> > > crushing
> > > > Afghanistan and Iraq? Hasn't the
> situation
> > become
> > > worse
> > > > now? Can we overlook the socio-cultural
> > complexities
> > > of our
> > > > region. Maybe the Karachi folks that were
> > interviewed
> > > in the
> > > > survey have never met an Indian or a Hindu.
> The
> > only
> > > image
> > > > that their education system has given them
> of
> > India is
> > > that
> > > > of an enemy. A violent confrontation will
> only
> > > strengthen
> > > > that image for them (and for us about them).
> But
> > I
> > > agree
> > > > that just a people-to-people contact is not
> the
> > only
> > > > effective solution - but it can probably
> help in
> > > improving
> > > > the results of those surveys in each
> other's
> > > favour. If
> > > > someone is sick, do you try to treat that
> person,
> > or
> > > do you
> > > > kill him so that his disease doesn't
> afflict
> > you.
> > > > That's the choice we have to make.
> > > > 
> > > > Yousuf
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Rahul Asthana
> > > > <rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > From: Rahul Asthana
> > <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is peace and
> > > reconciliation
> > > > an illusion?
> > > > > To: "sarai list"
> > > > <reader-list at sarai.net>, "Peace
> > > Initiative"
> > > > <peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com>,
> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> > > > > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com,
> > > > editor at hindustantimes.com
> > > > > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 7:13
> PM
> > > > > Dear Yousuf,
> > > > > Have you come across this survey
> published
> > in a
> > > > Pakistani
> > > > > newspaper?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://karachi.metblogs.com/2008/08/28/15-in-karachi-back-suicide-bombers-study/
> > > > > "Fifteen percent of participants
> in the
> > > > Karachi-based
> > > > > study supported suicide bombing and
> said
> > that
> > > Islam
> > > > and
> > > > > other religions supported it."
> > > > > "However, nearly 50 percent of all
> > those
> > > surveyed
> > > > in
> > > > > Karachi believed that suicide bombing
> was
> > > acceptable
> > > > in
> > > > > Palestine, Kashmir and Lebanon."
> > > > > Mind you, this is Karachi,probably the
> most
> > > > cosmopolitan of
> > > > > all Pak cities.
> > > > > You probably know Pakistan better than
> me,so
> > can
> > > you
> > > > > comment if I am wrong in my assumption
> that
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > probably no other place in Pakistan
> that can
> > be
> > > > expected to
> > > > > have lower numbers than Karachi in the
> > questions
> > > > polled.
> > > > > Do you think this is a significant
> > difference?
> > > How do
> > > > you
> > > > > plan to bridge this divide? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > Rahul
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Yousuf
> > > <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > From: Yousuf
> <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Is peace
> and
> > > > reconciliation an
> > > > > illusion?
> > > > > > To: "sarai list"
> > > > > <reader-list at sarai.net>,
> "Peace
> > > > Initiative"
> > > > >
> <peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Cc: kumkum at hindustantimes.com,
> > > > > editor at hindustantimes.com
> > > > > > Date: Friday, January 23, 2009,
> 3:25 PM
> > > > > > Here is a letter I wrote in
> response to
> > an
> > > HT
> > > > article
> > > > > > (copied at bottom):
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Dear Kumkum Chadha
> > > > > > Reading the war-cry in your
> write-up I
> > am
> > > > wondering if
> > > > > this
> > > > > > is the same country which produced
> > Gandhi,
> > > Kabir,
> > > > > Buddha and
> > > > > > such non-violent people. While you
> find
> > the
> > > job
> > > > of the
> > > > > > “peaceniks” futile and a waste
> of
> > time,
> > > I
> > > > found
> > > > > your
> > > > > > write-up a bit confusing. Today, a
> > large
> > > number
> > > > of
> > > > > people on
> > > > > > both sides of the border are fed
> up
> > with
> > > terror
> > > > and
> > > > > violence
> > > > > > and are anxious for a workable
> > solution. But
> > > much
> > > > of
> > > > > your
> > > > > > essay is an extremely pessimistic
> > attack on
> > > such
> > > > > people who
> > > > > > try to channelize their angst into
> > > productive and
> > > > > positive
> > > > > > use. You doubt the very intentions
> of
> > the
> > > people
> > > > who
> > > > > > genuinely want peace. If you are
> > proposing
> > > that
> > > > all
> > > > > efforts
> > > > > > of peace and reconciliation and
> the
> > > > people-to-people
> > > > > contact
> > > > > > between India and Pakistan be shut
> and
> > > replaced
> > > > simply
> > > > > by a
> > > > > > cold “co-existence”, how
> exactly do
> > you
> > > > define
> > > > > this
> > > > > > co-existence? Aren’t we
> co-existing
> > right
> > > now?
> > > > How
> > > > > can a
> > > > > > bonhomie harm this co-existence? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I agree that the page-3 kebab
> parties
> > > between
> > > > Indian
> > > > > and
> > > > > > Pakistani activists do not serve
> any
> > > purpose, but
> > > > I
> > > > > found
> > > > > > your statement that there are
> actually
> > no
> > > > > commonalities
> > > > > > between the culture of India and
> > Pakistan
> > > rather
> > > > > juvenile.
> > > > > > If India and Pakistan should be
> hostile
> > to
> > > each
> > > > other
> > > > > > because they are culturally
> dissimilar,
> > then
> > > we
> > > > should
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a million more partitions within
> India
> > due
> > > to our
> > > > > cultural
> > > > > > differences.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think the efforts of peace
> activists
> > of
> > > the two
> > > > > countries
> > > > > > have remained less effective so
> far
> > because
> > > their
> > > > > reach has
> > > > > > been limited to Delhi, Amritsar or
> > Lahore
> > > only.
> > > > If
> > > > > they
> > > > > > reached smaller and remote places
> such
> > as
> > > > Gorakhpur,
> > > > > > Piparia, Abbotabad and Faisalabad,
> and
> > meet
> > > the
> > > > > ordinary
> > > > > > people, they’ll probably be able
> to
> > > understand
> > > > each
> > > > > other
> > > > > > better and realize that not
> everyone in
> > > these
> > > > > countries
> > > > > > wants war. When you say that there
> is
> > “an
> > > > > irreparable
> > > > > > divide, and the attempts to bridge
> it
> > are
> > > both
> > > > > unrealistic
> > > > > > and impossible”, I think the
> divide
> > has
> > > been
> > > > created
> > > > > by
> > > > > > the governments and writers like
> you.
> > The
> > > > ordinary
> > > > > people of
> > > > > > the two countries are the only
> ones who
> > can
> > > > bridge
> > > > > this
> > > > > > divide, if you stop writing such
> > nonsense.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yousuf Saeed
> > > > > > New Delhi
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > (on behalf of many friends in
> India and
> > > Pakistan
> > > > who
> > > > > will
> > > > > > continue to strive for peace,
> dialogue
> > and
> > > > > reconciliation)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We’re not all in it together
> > > > > > Kumkum Chadha, Hindustan Times
> > > > > > January 22, 2009
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > With tension between India and
> Pakistan
> > > > escalating,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > self-appointed ambassadors of
> peace
> > have
> > > their
> > > > hands
> > > > > full.
> > > > > > Irrespective of the
> inappropriateness
> > of
> > > > marketing
> > > > > peace at
> > > > > > a time when India has yet to come
> to
> > terms
> > > with
> > > > 26/11,
> > > > > > peaceniks on both sides are
> overactive.
> > Last
> > > week
> > > > a
> > > > > > Pakistani delegation landed in
> Amritsar
> > with
> > > a
> > > > banner
> > > > > of
> > > > > > friendship; another is invading
> Delhi
> > to
> > > talk
> > > > peace.
> > > > > Worse
> > > > > > still, their Indian counterparts
> held
> > > meetings to
> > > > > ensure
> > > > > > that their peace mission was a
> roaring
> > > success,
> > > > apart
> > > > > from
> > > > > > warmly welcoming them on Indian
> soil.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Each time Indians visit Pakistan
> or
> > they us,
> > > they
> > > > are
> > > > > > visibly gushing with emotion. Both
> make
> > > endless
> > > > > comparisons
> > > > > > and list commonalities in food,
> dress,
> > > language,
> > > > > culture and
> > > > > > of course history. Politically
> correct,
> > but
> > > > untrue
> > > > > because
> > > > > > there are distinct differences  in
> the
> > > respective
> > > > > cuisines,
> > > > > > languages, festivals, customs,
> rituals
> > and
> > > > religion.
> > > > > What
> > > > > > are common are the scars of
> Partition
> > and a
> > > > > blood-stained
> > > > > > divide: facts which peaceniks
> pretend
> > do not
> > > > exist as
> > > > > they
> > > > > > exchange garlands and bear hugs,
> while
> > > pining for
> > > > a
> > > > > no-visa
> > > > > > regime. It’s all very well to
> savour
> > > kebabs and
> > > > > hosting
> > > > > > lavish dinners. But scratch the
> surface
> > and
> > > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > acrimony: raw wounds that have
> little
> > chance
> > > of
> > > > > healing.
> > > > > > Mention Kashmir or terrorism and
> > positions
> > > > harden.
> > > > > Then it
> > > > > > is ‘you versus us’ rather than
> > ‘you
> > > and
> > > > us’.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So even while President Asif Ali
> > Zardari
> > > tried to
> > > > > charm
> > > > > > Indians at the HT summit by saying
> that
> > > there is
> > > > a
> > > > > little
> > > > > > bit of India in every Pakistani
> and
> > vice
> > > versa,
> > > > the
> > > > > truth is
> > > > > > that there is no love lost between
> the
> > two.
> > > It is
> > > > rare
> > > > > to
> > > > > > find an Indian warming up to a
> > Pakistani.
> > > However
> > > > hard
> > > > > we
> > > > > > may try, we cannot wish away the
> mutual
> > > suspicion
> > > > > sealed by
> > > > > > history. There is an irreparable
> divide
> > and
> > > > attempts
> > > > > to
> > > > > > bridge it are both unrealistic and
> > > impossible.
> > > > > Marching to
> > > > > > the Wagah border to light candles
> for
> > peace
> > > is at
> > > > best
> > > > > a
> > > > > > goodwill gesture with no tangible
> > results.
> > > In
> > > > other
> > > > > words, a
> > > > > > waste of time. Consequently when
> an
> > enraged
> > > > Pranab
> > > > > > Mukherjee, India’s Foreign
> Minister,
> > sheds
> > > > diplomacy
> > > > > and
> > > > > > cries war, he cannot be faulted.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > This being the ground reality, it
> is
> > time to
> > > shed
> > > > > > superficial bonhomie and get real,
> and
> > > abandon
> > > > the
> > > > > song and
> > > > > > dance about friendship. We need to
> be
> > > brutally
> > > > honest
> > > > > and
> > > > > > change tack from a focus on peace
> to
> > > > co-existence. It
> > > > > is
> > > > > > compulsions of geography and not
> bonds
> > of
> > > history
> > > > that
> > > > > force
> > > > > > us to live side by side. Replacing
> > peace
> > > with
> > > > > co-existence
> > > > > > will also help end the
> > “like-mindedness”
> > > > theory
> > > > > and
> > > > > > reveal common meeting points in
> place
> > of
> > > > non-workable
> > > > > > alliances. It will end pretensions
> > about
> > > > camaraderie
> > > > > and
> > > > > > help us face reality: however
> hard,
> > bitter
> > > and
> > > > brutal
> > > > > it may
> > > > > > be. Once minds are re-scripted, it
> will
> > be
> > > much
> > > > easier
> > > > > to
> > > > > > tackle the inherent acrimony
> bordering
> > on
> > > > aggression.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Erase the friendship logo and
> there
> > could be
> > > a
> > > > road
> > > > > ahead;
> > > > > > abandon the thought of jointly
> treading
> > the
> > > path
> > > > and
> > > > > > solutions could be on the anvil.
> But
> > break
> > > bread
> > > > > together
> > > > > > and it is a non- starter because
> > despite the
> > > > kebabs
> > > > > and
> > > > > > candles, terror attacks and a
> volatile
> > > Indo-Pak
> > > > border
> > > > > are
> > > > > > the order of the day.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The only casualty here would be
> the
> > > peaceniks.
> > > > Not
> > > > > only
> > > > > > will they be out of work but will
> be
> > > unwilling to
> > > > > accept
> > > > > > that what they have been marketing
> all
> > these
> > > > years is
> > > > > an
> > > > > > illusion.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=9e445e0d-ecff-4fe5-a9fe-79b28e821def
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >       
> > > > > >
> > _________________________________________
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> list on
> > > media and
> > > > the
> > > > > city.
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