[Reader-list] On Kashmir and Self Determination

Rahul Asthana rahul_capri at yahoo.com
Sun Jul 19 12:07:32 IST 2009 

"First a peaceful life needs to be ensured,
> so it is by choice and not co-ercion."
So what are you proposing?I support withdrawal of AFSpA.Nobody can ensure Pakistan army discontinuing its policy of sponsoring terrorism because its their bread and butter.If you look at the terms of the UN resolution India is under no obligation to provide for any sort of referendum in the light of the current role of the Pakistan army.
The Pakistan army is not an easy monster to tame.Its a highly organised criminal mafia which has full support of the United States administration.Indian state is a ruthless entity in itself but its nothing compared to the Pakistan army which uses its citizens as canon fodder to blackmail other governments. With such kind of an institution in power,one should not expect India to unilaterally disengage from Kashmir.In my opinion the prerequisite for a long term stable solution in Kashmir is a stable democracy in Pakistan with a defanged army. 

--- On Sun, 7/19/09, subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote:

> From: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] On Kashmir and Self Determination
> To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 8:46 AM
> Dear Rahul,
> Would not any war time settlement like this be unstable?
> Will not the terms be economically harsh for the 'new
> state'? Will not a promise or hope for such issues only keep
> violence alive? First a peaceful life needs to be ensured,
> so it is by choice and not co-ercion.
> Regards, 
> Subhrodip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. <reader-list at sarai.net>;
> subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> Sent: Sunday, 19 July, 2009 7:37:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] On Kashmir and Self
> Determination
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Subhrodip,
> I agree.India and Pakistan have messed Kashmir up.AFSpA
> should be scrapped and Pakistan should stop sending
> terrorists . The question is what role should you or I
> choose.What should be our criteria to support or oppose a
> particular course of action in Kashmir? There are people
> like  Junaid who are not really worried about how many
> people die everyday.For them Kashmiri nationalism is as much
> an article of faith as Indian Nationalism is to those who
> believe in the "Atut Ang theory".The right of self
> determination is not axiomatic and so is not the right of
> India to retain Kashmir by force. I humbly submit that we
> should not be dogmatic about any nationalism and should
> advocate the course of action that results in resolving the
> impasse in Kashmir.Then again, I can only speak for myself.
> Thanks
> Rahul
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 7/19/09, subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> > Subject: [Reader-list] On Kashmir and Self
> Determination
> > To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 7:15 AM
> > Dear all, 
> > This problem shall continue if the posession of land
> for
> > all those who lost it due to the queer laws of
> inheritance
> > in Kashmir, and those who were chased out of
> >
> it........................................................................................................
> > Kashmiri Pandits and people assaulted either by Indian
> or by
> > militant Armed forces. Amidst the heated and quite
> > interesting discussions, one question I'd like to
> > ask.....................................
> > Religion, Nation etc. should occupy a limited extent
> of our
> > lives so that they crown those aspects where they are
> > needed. Because I am an Indian, I shouldnt rape poorer
> Gori
> > Chamris just for the pleasure of it, a case of dire
> racism.
> > Introducing Baluchstan, made Pak ................
> > Why should not kasmiris decide and Not India or Pak or
> Bg
> > Bro? Ok, but lets see why this sore gets so sensitive
> and
> > hurts at slightest touch, my newspaper readings
> suggests it
> > is the Indian armed forces and the armed act, army
> appearing
> > in every domain of social life and so the anti-army
> forces,
> > that makes these people crave for a different kind of
> > independance, from the state which doent want to
> repeal the
> > special armed forces act, riddled in a political
> struggle,
> > banded into the freedom wagon. Why isnt the peace
> option not
> > recognised? My reading of this however would not be
> much
> > different from Lallu time railways or Maharasthra's
> Son of
> > Soil pol by Raj Thackrey..............
> > Only if life was more normalised, we could retain
> >
> kashmir....................................................................
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net;
> > Junaid justjunaid at gmail..com
> > 
> > Sent: Sunday, 19 July, 2009 3:05:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Why Kashmir has no case
> for
> > self-determination
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Junaid,
> > There is a difference between a colonized body of land
> and
> > a constituent state of a democracy.
> > 
> > What do you think makes Kashmir more of a nation than
> > say,Tamil Nadu?If I am getting it right, you are
> defining
> > Kashmir nation through "a sense of solidarity based
> on
> > principle of justice and freedom".Is that correct?
> > 
> > Also, in your opinion,is India the only occupying
> nation in
> > Kashmir or do 
> > you give Pakistan that distinction as well?
> > 
> > Thanks
> > Rahul
> > 
> > --- On Sun, 7/19/09, Junaid <justjunaid at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Junaid <justjunaid at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Why Kashmir has no
> case for
> > self-determination
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 12:44 AM
> > > Kashmir is a case of a nation
> > > fighting for its liberation. National
> > > liberation struggles work on the democratic
> principle
> > of
> > > self-determination.. This principle of
> > self-determination
> > > does not
> > > emerge from the charter of the UN or any other
> > > multinational document.
> > > But on the contrary what is enshrined in the UN
> > Charter
> > > emerged from
> > > an ethical realisation that self-determination is
> the
> > > foundational
> > > principle to achieve justice-which in turn is the
> bed
> > rock
> > > for peace.
> > > 
> > > Two world wars later this principle was widely
> > accepted.
> > > And it proved
> > > to be a shot in the arm for the decolonization
> > movement,
> > > which
> > > resulted in the victory for the anti-colonial
> > struggles in
> > > the Indian
> > > subcontinent and in other places. (On the
> betrayal of
> > > anti-colonial
> > > struggle though, I might add quickly what Faiz
> said
> > "Yeh
> > > woh seher to
> > > nahin jis ki aarizu lekar.." or what Mehjoor
> spoke
> > when he
> > > lamented
> > > the "Freedom, you knocked only on a few
> doors...").
> > > 
> > > Anti-colonial strugglers had been arguing for the
> same
> > for
> > > ever, but
> > > colonizers almost ended up annihilating each
> other
> > before
> > > realising
> > > colonialism couldn't continue. It took a lot of
> > struggle
> > > and sacrifice
> > > from the colonised people to make it happen.
> > Colonisers
> > > tried every
> > > trick up their sleeve to defer the eventuality.
> > > 
> > > It is not important if Kashmir has "a case for"
> > > self-determination or
> > > not. There is no court that can decide that. At
> least
> > it is
> > > not
> > > important for Kashmiris to know if "Indian
> > nationalists"
> > > think they
> > > have a case. It would be naive to believe that
> Indian
> > > nationalists for
> > > whom "the idea of India" is like a religious
> > faith--and in
> > > fact is a
> > > religious faith--would come around and change
> their
> > opinion
> > > on it--
> > > least through discussion. What is important is
> that
> > > Kashmiris think
> > > that they have the case, and a need for freedom
> and
> > > independence. It
> > > is clear that over the last 80 years of
> > struggle--first
> > > against Dogra
> > > rulers and then against the Indian rule--the case
> in
> > the
> > > eyes of
> > > Kashmiris has grown stronger than ever.
> > > 
> > > National liberation struggles start like pebbles
> > rolling
> > > down the
> > > hill, and end up like avalanches. More and more
> > people,
> > > young people,
> > > even small kids, (more strongly than generations
> > before
> > > them) feel
> > > that being Kashmiri has a meaning to them. More
> and
> > more
> > > they
> > > understand this idea of being Kashmiri as
> running
> > counter
> > > to any
> > > individual or group affliation with the idea of
> India.
> > The
> > > idea of
> > > India is understood as something that stops them
> from
> > > being
> > > Kashmiri--a condition which is utterly
> unacceptable
> > to
> > > them. The idea
> > > of independence has grown exponentially since
> Sheikh
> > > Abdullah's Naya
> > > Kashmir document. The desire for independence
> when it
> > > couples itself
> > > with the need for it, is unstoppable.
> > > 
> > > Nationalism in Kashmir acts more like a national
> > solidarity
> > > based on
> > > principles of justice and freedom, instead of
> feeding
> > on
> > > the notions
> > > of "a glorious past" or the chauvinist idea of
> "the
> > chosen
> > > people".
> > > Within the current global discourse of "Islam",
> > however,
> > > Kashmiris too
> > > get a bad name for being Muslims, which in the
> > long-run
> > > does not have
> > > drastic consequences though. It will wane.
> > Islamophobia
> > > cannot hold.
> > > There are more than 1.5 billion Muslims all over
> the
> > world
> > > which
> > > otherwise the world have to contend with as
> enemies.
> > > Anti-Hindu
> > > sentiment in some sections of Kashmiris is not
> only a
> > > result of the
> > > past experiences of the Dogra rule but also of
> how
> > the
> > > Indian
> > > occupation and the neo-Hinduism get entwined.
> For
> > > Kashmiris, 80 years
> > > of struggle against an overtly Hindu Dogra rule,
> and
> > then
> > > the transfer
> > > of rule to an increasingly Hindu India, makes
> the
> > > imperial-territorial
> > > discourse of neo-Hinduism a symbolic foe. There
> are
> > no
> > > doctrinal
> > > issues in the sense where Hindus and Muslims
> can't sit
> > and
> > > live
> > > together. In Kashmir, and in India, they have. No
> one
> > in
> > > Srinagar
> > > would say they want to put Islam's green flag on
> the
> > red
> > > fort.
> > > 
> > > This is the nationalism of the Fourth World. A
> world
> > which
> > > is utterly
> > > betrayed by the promises of the Third
> World--which by
> > > mimicking the
> > > First World, in rhetoric and substance looks and
> > behaves
> > > like former
> > > colonial countries.
> > > 
> > > And Kashmiris don't expect that "Azadi" will be
> given
> > on a
> > > platter. It
> > > will be taken through everyday anti-occupation
> > struggle by
> > > Kashmiris.
> > > It will take time. Kashmiris have suffered much
> but
> > there
> > > is very
> > > little fatigue. As the struggle intensifies, so
> will
> > > oppression. But
> > > that will be the undoing og the occupation.
> India
> > will
> > > leave Kashmir
> > > because there is no other way. I only hope it
> doesn't
> > > happen at the
> > > end of a catastrophe that engufls the entire
> > subcontinent.
> > > _________________________________________
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