[Reader-list] Fwd: On Kashmir and Self Determination

Vedavati Jogi vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com
Mon Jul 20 20:55:56 IST 2009 

my inputs are,
 
by supporting socalled 'kashmir cause' you seculars are supporting terrorists.
 
secondly its an unfortunate fact that whenever and whereever muslims were in majority hindus have suffered
i am sure you will equate those acts of violent muslims with gujrat / ayodhya etc. 
ayodhya movement was not against muslims, but definitely against babri structure which was a mark of insult. none of the countries except india has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. 
its a historical  fact that muslim invaders have pulled down many temples and built masjids on them. they have done it in kashmir too in the recent past.  
third thing,
gujrat - the most favourite topic of seculars 
gujrat happened because godhra happened. its a fact again!
 
by the way what about other points (like secular abdullahs, non-muslim kashmiris etc.)  which i have mentioned in my mail and you have conviniently ignored ? 
i would like to know your views on them.
 
vedavati

--- On Mon, 20/7/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:


From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: On Kashmir and Self Determination
To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Monday, 20 July, 2009, 10:11 PM


Dear Vedavati jee,

"there are many pockets in india where muslims are in majority
do you think we should allow them to partition this country again & again
and create many more pakistans?"

By saying this you are dividing this nation furthermore. I think it is the
way you look at one religion, which is problemmatic. If there are violent
muslims, there are violent hindus too. when they start creating ruckus in
ayodhya, gujarat, they are dividing the country furthermore. what is your
input to that?

-regards anupam


On 7/20/09, Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> let me give my inputs
> 1) you have said
> "Abdullah who stood like a wall between the merger of Kashmir with
> Pakistan"
>
> -- not because he believed in 'secularism' but because he wanted to
> establish his supremacy over kashmir. he wanted to be a 'sultan' of kashmir.
>
> 2) you said,
> "Sheikh was a real hero of his times. Where Gandhi failed to curb the large
> scale communal violence Sheikh succeeded in Kashmir. "
>
> - gandhi failed because he could not control ' violent muslims'
> as the latter had never  accepted gandhi as their leader.
> sheikh succeeded in kashmir because hindus were in minority  there.  (this
> statement is self explainatory)
>
> 3) govt. of india has pumped in billions of rupees in last 62 years for the
> welfare of kashmiris but if the latter could not get the benefits of that
> then its only because of extremely corrupt abdulla family.
> in the short tenure of jagmohan in 1986 people (irrespective of their
> religion) were very happy. unfortunately in 1989 when he took over again as
> a governor of  kashmir, our 'secular' leaders sitting in delhi did not allow
> him to work.
>
> 4) you have said,
> "A simple anger against this kind of polity is inevitable, which is
> compounded by the presence of troops on every paddy field and every roof
> top. Nothing can prevent Kashmir from its agenda of freedom"
>
> -if it is so, then why did kashmiri pandits/sikhs or buddhists not join
> this agitation?
>
> if india really gives freedom to kashmir then, from osama bin laden to
> yasin malik  there is a big list of terrorists who would like to 'govern'
> the state.
> will common kashmiris be happy under them?
>
> last but not least,
> there are many pockets in india where muslims are in majority
> do you think we should allow them to partition this country again & again
> and create many more pakistans?
>
> vedavati
> --- On Sun, 19/7/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: On Kashmir and Self Determination
> To: "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Sunday, 19 July, 2009, 3:58 PM
>
>
> Dear All
> KASHMIR ,once again on the List, and we see, familiar names throwing
> up their well known convictions.I am also throwing my own bit, as
> usual. Nothing new, which confirms that Kashmir issue is alive as much
> as it was in 1947.
>
> Here, I cant stop thinking about Sheikh Abdullah who stood like a wall
> between the merger of Kashmir with Pakistan. Had he not been so
> courageous and far sighted, Kashmir would been another Swat, or worse
> in the present. Sheikh was a real hero of his times. Where Gandhi
> failed to curb the large scale communal violence Sheikh succeeded in
> Kashmir. He was a down to earth Kashmiri who wanted good for Kashmiris
> irrespective of religious and ethnic considerations.
>
> But one wrong step on the intellectual-land-mine laid by Indian
> Government made us to witness Indira-Sheikh Accord which obviously
> blew him to bits . He suffered a dent in his forehead bone, which is
> now part of his image in Kashmir. Had he not agreed to eat the Indian
> bait, he would have been nothing less than Nelson Mandela of this
> subcontinent. But alas, his coterie and his own complacency led him to
> his downfall. But, this is what I feel, and most probably Shikeh
> himself was a changed man and wanted to relish the luxuries of power
> which Indira Gandhi granted him blindly.
>
> The present day representatives of that 1947 issue in Kashmir is less
> perfect than what Sheikh had innately in his bones, and as reports
> fall in, they are already on Indian diet.
>
> The question, now is that who are these unfortunate  people who
> failed to see a genuine leadership/representative in the valley.
> Paradoxically, Indian Goverentment has done one good thing that it is
> aborted all the efforts of Pakistan to annex Kashmir. But, on the
> other hand it has done nothing to understand the Kashmiri sentiments.
> Kashmir deserved freedom in 47 but it was denied. May be British
> rulers were comfortable with that arrangement, but very little is said
> on their role to divide Kashmir.
>
> Jinnah was not off the mark in his comment ‘blank cheque in his
> pocket’ while speaking on Kashmir, since he knew that people in
> Kashmir would happily agree to join Pakistan in 1947. But Sheikh
> turned his dream into a nightmare, and Nehru turned Sheikhs dream into
> a nightmare. It is all sad, that Kashmiri sentiments were not
> respected by these two nation theorist of 1947.
>
> In 1990, Kashmiris had no choice but to eat Pakistani line on Kashmir
> issue, since election were rigged openly. In the ‘Pakistani line’
> Kashmiri Hindus were the first targets, and so were numerous  other
> political representatives. It was war against Indian face in the
> valley. But Pakistan again had its own axe to grind, and wanted
> Kashmiris to become Pakistanis first and then Kashmirs, which they
> denied, and so we saw kashmiri militants/jihads fighting each other.
> Indian diplomacy gained, Pakistani diplomacy suffered, but at the cost
> of thousands of kashmiris dead,  for a cause or without a cause.
>
> It is ironical that after all these years we have the same coalition
> in power in Kashmir which openly rigged elections in 1989. A simple
> anger against this kind of polity is inevitable, which is compounded
> by the presence of troops on every paddy field and every roof top.
> Nothing can prevent Kashmir from its agenda of freedom, since both
> Indian and Pakistani stands on Kashmir are unaltered. Quite boring.
>
> There are many reasons why a particular community turns
> fundamentalist. We have all the reasons to blame‘ the cold war ’
> tactics which gave birth to this monster called fundamentalism. Now we
> know why Turkey is not, and why Pakistan is a failed state.
>
> Because of Indian mind set, I believe, Kashmir has become more
> religious minded over the last 20 years , which is not a healthy sign,
> but modernity too has failed on various counts at the same time. For
> example, devastation of the environment is one thing which can  white
> wash all the pending issues and only our survival on earth will be the
> issue.
>
> In Kashmir, no new politics emerged, no new ways of living emerged.
> Creating a new nation state is obviously the dream of an average
> Kashmiri, but is that dream deep enough to sustain the masses? How to
> talk sustainability in the present without any compromise on their
> cherished dream of a free state? That is the challenge before
> Kashmiris. They still can guide the world, but may be  by looking into
> their language, and their sufi ways of living, rather than picking up
> a gun which is as easy as holding a cricket bat. But life is not a
> sports. It is a big responsibility.
>
> With love and regards
> is
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Rahul Asthana<rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > "First a peaceful life needs to be ensured,
> >> so it is by choice and not co-ercion."
> > So what are you proposing?I support withdrawal of AFSpA.Nobody can ensure
> Pakistan army discontinuing its policy of sponsoring terrorism because its
> their bread and butter.If you look at the terms of the UN resolution India
> is under no obligation to provide for any sort of referendum in the light of
> the current role of the Pakistan army.
> > The Pakistan army is not an easy monster to tame.Its a highly organised
> criminal mafia which has full support of the United States
> administration.Indian state is a ruthless entity in itself but its nothing
> compared to the Pakistan army which uses its citizens as canon fodder to
> blackmail other governments. With such kind of an institution in power,one
> should not expect India to unilaterally disengage from Kashmir.In my opinion
> the prerequisite for a long term stable solution in Kashmir is a stable
> democracy in Pakistan with a defanged army.
> >
> > --- On Sun, 7/19/09, subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] On Kashmir and Self Determination
> >> To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >> Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 8:46 AM
> >> Dear Rahul,
> >> Would not any war time settlement like this be unstable?
> >> Will not the terms be economically harsh for the 'new
> >> state'? Will not a promise or hope for such issues only keep
> >> violence alive? First a peaceful life needs to be ensured,
> >> so it is by choice and not co-ercion.
> >> Regards,
> >> Subhrodip.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> >> To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. <reader-list at sarai.net>;
> >> subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> >> Sent: Sunday, 19 July, 2009 7:37:39 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] On Kashmir and Self
> >> Determination
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Subhrodip,
> >> I agree.India and Pakistan have messed Kashmir up.AFSpA
> >> should be scrapped and Pakistan should stop sending
> >> terrorists . The question is what role should you or I
> >> choose.What should be our criteria to support or oppose a
> >> particular course of action in Kashmir? There are people
> >> like  Junaid who are not really worried about how many
> >> people die everyday.For them Kashmiri nationalism is as much
> >> an article of faith as Indian Nationalism is to those who
> >> believe in the "Atut Ang theory".The right of self
> >> determination is not axiomatic and so is not the right of
> >> India to retain Kashmir by force. I humbly submit that we
> >> should not be dogmatic about any nationalism and should
> >> advocate the course of action that results in resolving the
> >> impasse in Kashmir.Then again, I can only speak for myself.
> >> Thanks
> >> Rahul
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Sun, 7/19/09, subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > From: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> >> > Subject: [Reader-list] On Kashmir and Self
> >> Determination
> >> > To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >> > Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 7:15 AM
> >> > Dear all,
> >> > This problem shall continue if the posession of land
> >> for
> >> > all those who lost it due to the queer laws of
> >> inheritance
> >> > in Kashmir, and those who were chased out of
> >> >
> >>
> it..........................................................................................................
> >> > Kashmiri Pandits and people assaulted either by Indian
> >> or by
> >> > militant Armed forces. Amidst the heated and quite
> >> > interesting discussions, one question I'd like to
> >> > ask.....................................
> >> > Religion, Nation etc. should occupy a limited extent
> >> of our
> >> > lives so that they crown those aspects where they are
> >> > needed. Because I am an Indian, I shouldnt rape poorer
> >> Gori
> >> > Chamris just for the pleasure of it, a case of dire
> >> racism.
> >> > Introducing Baluchstan, made Pak ................
> >> > Why should not kasmiris decide and Not India or Pak or
> >> Bg
> >> > Bro? Ok, but lets see why this sore gets so sensitive
> >> and
> >> > hurts at slightest touch, my newspaper readings
> >> suggests it
> >> > is the Indian armed forces and the armed act, army
> >> appearing
> >> > in every domain of social life and so the anti-army
> >> forces,
> >> > that makes these people crave for a different kind of
> >> > independance, from the state which doent want to
> >> repeal the
> >> > special armed forces act, riddled in a political
> >> struggle,
> >> > banded into the freedom wagon. Why isnt the peace
> >> option not
> >> > recognised? My reading of this however would not be
> >> much
> >> > different from Lallu time railways or Maharasthra's
> >> Son of
> >> > Soil pol by Raj Thackrey..............
> >> > Only if life was more normalised, we could retain
> >> >
> >>
> kashmir......................................................................
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net;
> >> > Junaid justjunaid at gmail..com
> >> >
> >> > Sent: Sunday, 19 July, 2009 3:05:13 AM
> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Why Kashmir has no case
> >> for
> >> > self-determination
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi Junaid,
> >> > There is a difference between a colonized body of land
> >> and
> >> > a constituent state of a democracy.
> >> >
> >> > What do you think makes Kashmir more of a nation than
> >> > say,Tamil Nadu?If I am getting it right, you are
> >> defining
> >> > Kashmir nation through "a sense of solidarity based
> >> on
> >> > principle of justice and freedom".Is that correct?
> >> >
> >> > Also, in your opinion,is India the only occupying
> >> nation in
> >> > Kashmir or do
> >> > you give Pakistan that distinction as well?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks
> >> > Rahul
> >> >
> >> > --- On Sun, 7/19/09, Junaid <justjunaid at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > From: Junaid <justjunaid at gmail.com>
> >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Why Kashmir has no
> >> case for
> >> > self-determination
> >> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >> > > Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 12:44 AM
> >> > > Kashmir is a case of a nation
> >> > > fighting for its liberation. National
> >> > > liberation struggles work on the democratic
> >> principle
> >> > of
> >> > > self-determination.. This principle of
> >> > self-determination
> >> > > does not
> >> > > emerge from the charter of the UN or any other
> >> > > multinational document.
> >> > > But on the contrary what is enshrined in the UN
> >> > Charter
> >> > > emerged from
> >> > > an ethical realisation that self-determination is
> >> the
> >> > > foundational
> >> > > principle to achieve justice-which in turn is the
> >> bed
> >> > rock
> >> > > for peace.
> >> > >
> >> > > Two world wars later this principle was widely
> >> > accepted.
> >> > > And it proved
> >> > > to be a shot in the arm for the decolonization
> >> > movement,
> >> > > which
> >> > > resulted in the victory for the anti-colonial
> >> > struggles in
> >> > > the Indian
> >> > > subcontinent and in other places. (On the
> >> betrayal of
> >> > > anti-colonial
> >> > > struggle though, I might add quickly what Faiz
> >> said
> >> > "Yeh
> >> > > woh seher to
> >> > > nahin jis ki aarizu lekar.." or what Mehjoor
> >> spoke
> >> > when he
> >> > > lamented
> >> > > the "Freedom, you knocked only on a few
> >> doors...").
> >> > >
> >> > > Anti-colonial strugglers had been arguing for the
> >> same
> >> > for
> >> > > ever, but
> >> > > colonizers almost ended up annihilating each
> >> other
> >> > before
> >> > > realising
> >> > > colonialism couldn't continue. It took a lot of
> >> > struggle
> >> > > and sacrifice
> >> > > from the colonised people to make it happen.
> >> > Colonisers
> >> > > tried every
> >> > > trick up their sleeve to defer the eventuality.
> >> > >
> >> > > It is not important if Kashmir has "a case for"
> >> > > self-determination or
> >> > > not. There is no court that can decide that. At
> >> least
> >> > it is
> >> > > not
> >> > > important for Kashmiris to know if "Indian
> >> > nationalists"
> >> > > think they
> >> > > have a case. It would be naive to believe that
> >> Indian
> >> > > nationalists for
> >> > > whom "the idea of India" is like a religious
> >> > faith--and in
> >> > > fact is a
> >> > > religious faith--would come around and change
> >> their
> >> > opinion
> >> > > on it--
> >> > > least through discussion. What is important is
> >> that
> >> > > Kashmiris think
> >> > > that they have the case, and a need for freedom
> >> and
> >> > > independence. It
> >> > > is clear that over the last 80 years of
> >> > struggle--first
> >> > > against Dogra
> >> > > rulers and then against the Indian rule--the case
> >> in
> >> > the
> >> > > eyes of
> >> > > Kashmiris has grown stronger than ever.
> >> > >
> >> > > National liberation struggles start like pebbles
> >> > rolling
> >> > > down the
> >> > > hill, and end up like avalanches. More and more
> >> > people,
> >> > > young people,
> >> > > even small kids, (more strongly than generations
> >> > before
> >> > > them) feel
> >> > > that being Kashmiri has a meaning to them. More
> >> and
> >> > more
> >> > > they
> >> > > understand this idea of being Kashmiri as
> >> running
> >> > counter
> >> > > to any
> >> > > individual or group affliation with the idea of
> >> India.
> >> > The
> >> > > idea of
> >> > > India is understood as something that stops them
> >> from
> >> > > being
> >> > > Kashmiri--a condition which is utterly
> >> unacceptable
> >> > to
> >> > > them. The idea
> >> > > of independence has grown exponentially since
> >> Sheikh
> >> > > Abdullah's Naya
> >> > > Kashmir document. The desire for independence
> >> when it
> >> > > couples itself
> >> > > with the need for it, is unstoppable.
> >> > >
> >> > > Nationalism in Kashmir acts more like a national
> >> > solidarity
> >> > > based on
> >> > > principles of justice and freedom, instead of
> >> feeding
> >> > on
> >> > > the notions
> >> > > of "a glorious past" or the chauvinist idea of
> >> "the
> >> > chosen
> >> > > people".
> >> > > Within the current global discourse of "Islam",
> >> > however,
> >> > > Kashmiris too
> >> > > get a bad name for being Muslims, which in the
> >> > long-run
> >> > > does not have
> >> > > drastic consequences though. It will wane.
> >> > Islamophobia
> >> > > cannot hold.
> >> > > There are more than 1.5 billion Muslims all over
> >> the
> >> > world
> >> > > which
> >> > > otherwise the world have to contend with as
> >> enemies.
> >> > > Anti-Hindu
> >> > > sentiment in some sections of Kashmiris is not
> >> only a
> >> > > result of the
> >> > > past experiences of the Dogra rule but also of
> >> how
> >> > the
> >> > > Indian
> >> > > occupation and the neo-Hinduism get entwined.
> >> For
> >> > > Kashmiris, 80 years
> >> > > of struggle against an overtly Hindu Dogra rule,
> >> and
> >> > then
> >> > > the transfer
> >> > > of rule to an increasingly Hindu India, makes
> >> the
> >> > > imperial-territorial
> >> > > discourse of neo-Hinduism a symbolic foe. There
> >> are
> >> > no
> >> > > doctrinal
> >> > > issues in the sense where Hindus and Muslims
> >> can't sit
> >> > and
> >> > > live
> >> > > together. In Kashmir, and in India, they have. No
> >> one
> >> > in
> >> > > Srinagar
> >> > > would say they want to put Islam's green flag on
> >> the
> >> > red
> >> > > fort.
> >> > >
> >> > > This is the nationalism of the Fourth World. A
> >> world
> >> > which
> >> > > is utterly
> >> > > betrayed by the promises of the Third
> >> World--which by
> >> > > mimicking the
> >> > > First World, in rhetoric and substance looks and
> >> > behaves
> >> > > like former
> >> > > colonial countries.
> >> > >
> >> > > And Kashmiris don't expect that "Azadi" will be
> >> given
> >> > on a
> >> > > platter. It
> >> > > will be taken through everyday anti-occupation
> >> > struggle by
> >> > > Kashmiris.
> >> > > It will take time. Kashmiris have suffered much
> >> but
> >> > there
> >> > > is very
> >> > > little fatigue. As the struggle intensifies, so
> >> will
> >> > > oppression. But
> >> > > that will be the undoing og the occupation.
> >> India
> >> > will
> >> > > leave Kashmir
> >> > > because there is no other way. I only hope it
> >> doesn't
> >> > > happen at the
> >> > > end of a catastrophe that engufls the entire
> >> > subcontinent.
> >> > > _________________________________________
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