[Reader-list] Fwd: On Kashmir and Self Determination

anupam chakravartty c.anupam at gmail.com
Fri Jul 24 19:30:54 IST 2009 

Dear Rajen,

If we say miseries are heaped together so that one class of people can
remain in power, you have to understand what power means to those who
selectively pointing out one set of miseries as other channels of
negotiation have died down. One has to also understand that because one
careless action of a governing body, a whole lot of people become affected
thus this willingness to change everyone and everything around them.

Personally, i do not understand the discourses on evil or good. but simply
there are channels of peace. removal of armed forces would mean one is
creating that atmosphere of dialogue (between the genuine stake holders and
the authorities). For example, if government chose to deploy armed forces in
Mumbai after 26/11, it would have surely checked all the
infiltrations/loots/murders but then its not possible because people in
general would be suspicious about what authorities are doing in name of
security. it is for this very reason, armed forces were not deployed but a
more difficult, covert exercise of identifying suspects is going to check
the crime scene in the city. is that not possible in case of Kashmir? can
the local agencies which are more close to the people, acquainted with their
aspirations, behavioral pattern can take care of the menace of terrorism?
why does an army/BSF man have to invade the personal space of the people in
the name of the security?

-anupam

On 7/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi <rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Anupam,
>
>  as I was reading the novel by Dan Brown, Angels and debils, few thought
> struck me true, the gist was, in the world that we live, there is day and
> night, there is evil and good, there is right and wrong, and the black and
> white when mixed in right proportions, it becomes grey.! The humans being
> social animals have the sense of whay is right and wrongs, but the
> temptations to be in power, power corrupts everything that touches it, is
> way correct, miseries are heaped to stay in power.?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rajen.
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:39 PM, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Dear Murali,
>>
>> I appreciate that you use "may be". Even the wolf in sheep's clothing
>> argument doesnt apply in this case because both of these forces at the
>> very
>> basic ground level are working in similar ways. While one extorts money to
>> further the cause (also known as influence), the other extorts information
>> so that the state can politically re-condition people into believing that
>> they are very much a part of india (even if it not reflected in terms of
>> policies for development which in turn becomes security funds) For the
>> extremist, fanatic or whatever adjective that one wants to associate with
>> it, it is mostly the lure of money. In case, if u want to say that they
>> are
>> doing for such and such cause, its hogwash. As a champions of black
>> americans, Malcolm X had said the fight for the land. Security forces, a
>> tired lot of working professionals trained (if we have to sum all the
>> functions and put it together in the context of recent incidents) to kill.
>> (on many occasions, to finish the quota of the bullets, armed personnel in
>> kashmir and north east shoot at birds). I wont be surprised if a
>> stupendous
>> amount of defence spending goes around supplying
>> free-for-all-screw-them-all
>> bullets.
>>
>> A yet another parallel perspective is that these are a bunch of brave men
>> caught in the cross fire of political rivalries. possibly true. so what
>> could stop these political rivals from using the security agencies for
>> their
>> own political vendetta? i wonder.
>>
>> so yes, there is an infiltration of extrmist idealogies, political biases,
>> criminal intent into the armed forces (why? because they are armed and
>> power
>> comes from the gun). it has been happening for ages now. protectors (not
>> all
>> of them may be) are also the destroyers. and in this game of hide and
>> seek,
>> the common, the driver, the passenger, the guide, the locals, sheep and
>> may
>> be a goat, keep struggling, fighting and even dying.
>>
>> -anupam
>>  On 7/24/09, Murali V <murali.chalam at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Well, may be true of inhuman infiltrators of the extremist kind.
>> > V Murali
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Meera Rizvi <meera.rizvi at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Dear Rajendra,
>> > >
>> > > What am I not an exception to? And what does my surname have to do
>> with
>> > it?
>> > > Would really like to know.
>> > >
>> > > Also, the army like any other organization is populated by the humane
>> as
>> > > well as inhumane. It would be utterly naive to suppose otherwise. And
>> > when
>> > > a
>> > > jawan, trained to destroy an enemy is put into a situation where its
>> not
>> > > clear who is a friend and who an enemy, he's bound to be a little
>> jumpy.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > >
>> > > Meera
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 7/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi <rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Dear Anupam,
>> > > >
>> > > > and all on readers list,
>> > > >
>> > > > basically armed forces, I mean defence forces are used for WAR in
>> > defence
>> > > > of the nation, as they willingly lay down life for their nation
>> > > protecting
>> > > > the citizens of the nation, whether such sacrifice is acknowledged,
>> > > > accepted
>> > > > with humility or otherwise.
>> > > >
>> > > > Billion crores have been spent on Kashmir state by governance for
>> the
>> > > > sustainance of the state, few in  ungrateful in Kashmir state are
>> still
>> > > > craving for the affiliation to Pakistan because of the fanatic
>> > religious
>> > > > overtones and undertones and see the helping hand of India as
>> > oppressing
>> > > > power, not all, but few of them. India being democratic, this
>> dissent
>> > is
>> > > > tolerated if not exceeds to violent means. Basically, in such a
>> > situation
>> > > > army has no role to play except at borders to see that cross border
>> > > terror
>> > > > does not creep in, but this faction gains support from such elements
>> > and
>> > > > foists violence for the "azaadi". Faith in any way does not preach
>> > > > violence,
>> > > > but religious followers of faith for the power, use faith for
>> violence
>> > in
>> > > > all faiths.
>> > > >
>> > > > Meera is no exception as her surname suggests, as the army has not
>> to
>> > be
>> > > > employed for the peace keeping but only for fighting the insurgency
>> at
>> > > > borders, but when army personnel, who are also humans, see the
>> inhuman
>> > > acts
>> > > > of the fanatics, who have no uniforms, but hide AK47s inside
>> religious
>> > > > robes, they have also developed the sense of caution with this type
>> of
>> > > > civilians in terror form as insurgents. and their supporters.Meera
>> > living
>> > > > in
>> > > > Delhi has gone to visit the heaven on earth, now made hell on earth,
>> > > thanks
>> > > > to violence by the insurgents, faithful religious faith followers
>> and
>> > in
>> > > > retaliation, the armed forces. The basic fault lies in the power
>> > seekers
>> > > > who
>> > > > sleep with enemy for the sake of power, be it PDP or Congress or NC,
>> > > least
>> > > > bothered about real governance in the state.
>> > > >
>> > > > Regards,
>> > > >
>> > > > Rajen.
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:06 AM, anupam chakravartty <
>> > > c.anupam at gmail.com
>> > > > >wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I am just shocked to read how far the several readers on this list
>> > can
>> > > > > speculate without checking the ground realities just to further
>> one
>> > > > cause.
>> > > > > It is disgusting and demeaning if one underlines such
>> possibilities
>> > > which
>> > > > > could be only thought by a movie director. Even if there is a slim
>> > > > > possibility of militants dressed up armed forces doing such
>> > activities,
>> > > > why
>> > > > > is it that rapes in Nalbari and Churanchandpur in Assam and
>> Manipur
>> > by
>> > > > > Indian Army despite police records have been hushed? how is it
>> there
>> > > are
>> > > > > such a large number of missing persons both in north east and
>> > kashmir?
>> > > > what
>> > > > > does the reader have to say about mass graves found in kashmir,
>> > manipur
>> > > > and
>> > > > > in bastar, in the heart of this country? they were done by men in
>> > > uniform
>> > > > > or
>> > > > > uniformed men?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > i dont know if it applies to your reason or not dear reader, since
>> > > there
>> > > > > were such instances where armed forces took such steps of mass
>> > > execution
>> > > > or
>> > > > > gang rapes, that's how the extremists or terrorists got theses
>> idea
>> > of
>> > > > > using
>> > > > > the same tactics on the people. could that not be a possibility?
>> how
>> > > many
>> > > > > possibilities do you want to underline here dear reader sitting
>> > > > comfortably
>> > > > > inside your airconditioned rooms watching 24*7 news channels? down
>> > with
>> > > > > such
>> > > > > arm-chair speculation and shoddy analysis of a situation that's
>> not
>> > > only
>> > > > > affecting local people in these problem areas but also making it
>> > > > impossible
>> > > > > to find out which particular coterie of armed forces are behind
>> such
>> > > > > activities making it into behemoth instead of protector.
>> > > > > _________________________________________
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>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Rajen.
>> > > > _________________________________________
>> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > > > subscribe in the subject header.
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>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Meera
>> > > _________________________________________
>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > > Critiques & Collaborations
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>> > > subscribe in the subject header.
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>> > >
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
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>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rajen.
>
>

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