[Reader-list] Hindu article

[bipin]

Dear Anupam,

I have already mentioned that if it's case in Godhra, area remain undeveloped for abusing reason the concerned authorities should be punished. If you are not reading it fully than its not my problem.

I am learning ABC of politics and if you can teach me and become my Guru, I welcome you. Atleast you agreed that the massive riots took place on Chiman Patel, Madhavsinh rule days or not, clear first? If you do not know about anything no question of argument with you to go to root. However, if you agree that it happened than first go into details about how much long lasted and massive riot it was! The political leaders for their advantage and vote bank politics plays the riot card, it does not mean that Gujarati's are communal. It was open facts and discussed openly at that time that Indira encouraged the riot to remove Chiman Patel, the than CM, as he don't want to remain under her control. Such things can not have proof but a common man can easily understand such things.

Since almost independence or may be after decade of independence, Gujarat has suffered injustice only as far as financial aid is concerned, though Gujarat's contribution was very high by way of taxes. This is the reason Gujarat has changed the rule of congress and brought alternative in the form of BJP well before anywhere in the India. This was realized by UPA govt. in their last tenure and so they gave much more aid compared to previous years/governments.

I think you are not reading my post properly. I have never mentioned the exaggeration about Muslim treated as II class citizen. I have mentioned exaggeration of riot incidence was made. Actually there is no such treatment at all. This are all creations of few pseudo-secularists only. I think with your posting, you know much better about Gujarat than my home state. Glad to know this. I invite you to come and we can go anywhere to show me such treatment. Regarding noorani mahollah what you say if it is there I have already mentioned to punished such authority, which you have ignored and making the argument again.

Gujarati's are communal. What a rubbish statement you are making. AS FAR AS GUJARAT IS CONCERNED YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO MAKE ANY ARGUMENT FOR ANY MATTER WITH SUCH ABUSING STATEMENT. With such a statement, you are treating whole Gujarati community as II class citizen of India. You have to answer this first and than talk about Gujarat's Muslims. We are here to take care of our brother Gujarat Muslim and stop the interference in our Gujarat family.

As you mentioned my religion, which in your eye is Hindu, so the yours also. Are you not Hindu? It would have been better you have mentioned our religion. THIS IS ALSO NON-SECULAR STAND!!! But problem is that you people don't understand the real secularism. As far as religion is concerned I believe only in Human RELIGION or DHARMA. Whenever some form to be filled up and asked about cast/religion, I am mentioning Human religion only. This I have already given earlier my definition of secularism mentioning again bellow.

In India, I think, who speak for or create show to speak for minority is secular and who speak for majority is communal. This is the definition of secularism in India is prevailing.

 

The real secularism is to give equal respect and treatment to all the religions (dharma). 

 

BUT, WHAT IS RELIGION or DHARMA? IT IS VERY COMPLICATED QUESTION. The real religion or dharma is the work you do honestly and sincerely allotted to you. For Ex. You have to take care of your new born child and make him/her self sufficient by giving good culture, education, discipline, fighting spirit etc. and instead of this if you remain in the activities like prayer in temples/mosque and devote the time after god only is not the real dharma you are adopting. You carry on your duty sincerely and honestly you have to do at the different stages of life is the real dharma or religion.


I have already mentioned in my earlier communication with Taha and Rakesh, political analysis after independence, which you must have read it. If you want I can send you again.

thanks
Bipin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "anupam chakravartty" <c.anupam at gmail.com>
To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article


> dear bipin,
> 
> im not talking about visiting signal faliya with a sense of fear or ecstacy
> or any other feeling for that matter. you may have visited at night, which
> is why you did not see what that area has been turned into. i think you are
> blabbering absolute trash here, so there is no point arguing with you.
> 
> i think with your shallow understanding of indian politics no argument is
> possible because one hand you are saying that gujaratis are not communal
> while, you accused Chimanbhai and Madhavsinh of communal rioting ...that too
> against hindus. how misinformed ignorant can someone -- you are just the
> best example. i urge to stop attending tv shows, meet people since you are
> so bothered about change and other such things.
> 
> i dont know which kind of development you talk about without even answering
> fundamental questions being posed at you. you couldnt say anything about
> noorani mohalla nor your arguments addresed thousands of missing people in
> gujarat after the riots.
> 
> also, i think you will really enjoy it when someone would make fun of your
> religion, make mockery of it because as you have pointed out its
> an exaggeration about muslims being treated as second class citizens. so i
> think you are also exaggerating on other occasions when you point out plight
> of kashmiri pandits. even as, people like modi from 2001 to 2009 kept on
> using derogatory phrases against muslims in the public meeting.
> 
> - anupam
> 
> On 6/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
> 
>> Dear Anupam,
>>
>> Glad to know that you know very well and met professor Bandukwala. To quote
>> someone's view heard on TV debate show open forum is as good as his own
>> views only. I heard their views many times in shows like Mukabala, Big fight
>> and similar shows and I have mentioned their reference.
>>
>> I don't want to discuss the election politics issue in Godhra. Since in my
>> discussion every time what I have opposed is vote bank politics only which
>> after independent congress played very well every time. All the party are
>> now following the same. If you want to say that its Muslim area and so
>> development is not there is rubbish argument. and if it true, in case of
>> Godhra as you mentioned, responsible authorities like Municipal Commissioner
>> and other authorized person should be punished. My point is to go for
>> development only. I had been once in Godhra and visited signal falia area
>> also during night time with family without any fear. So, the other area of
>> Godhra also.
>>
>> What example you have cited for outskirts of Vadodara city is the story of
>> not Vadodara, but almost all the outskirts areas of the Indian cities/towns.
>> That way we lac in infrastructure and that we have to do first as the
>> development. Even in Ahmedabad, my home town where I stay, eastern outskirts
>> area remain undeveloped since many years. However, that area improved much
>> now and developed with all the facilities like better roads, drainage, water
>> supply.
>>
>> You are mentioning Modi's comment for Mumbai police commissioner "that too
>> Muslim" but on what contest he has spoken. Make comment after going through
>> full speech what he said and just don't get into only two datas. As you
>> mentioned I am not big fan's Modi, but I am fan of development and whoever
>> does it I appreciate it and become fan of it. Whether it is Manmohan Singh,
>> Sheila Dikshit, Shivrajsinh Chauhan.
>>
>> I am opposing the exaggeration made in case of Gujarat riots. Without go
>> into the root of it, one cannot assess the real things. If you go to the
>> history, the real state sponsored riot was played during congress rule in
>> Gujarat by Chiman Patel and Madhavsinh Solanki, where Hindu suffered a lot.
>> But since the Hindu was suffered no hallabol, no exaggeration was made!!!
>>
>> Thanks for your guidance how to get in Vadodara. For your information, I am
>> visiting frequently to Vadodara and visited almost all the areas.
>>
>> thanks
>> Bipin
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
>> c.anupam at gmail.com>
>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 1:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article
>>
>>
>> Bipin,
>>>
>>> Professor J.S. Bandukwala's house was attacked and burnt down by rioters
>>> in
>>> 2002. He is not that sort of a man who will tell you that he is treated
>>> like
>>> a second class citizen. That man has more books and guts which i am sure
>>> modi or maya kodnani wouldnt able to withstand. That man continues to
>>> write
>>> against Modi government's policies and its attitude towards muslims,
>>> stands
>>> for the helpless. I am 100% sure you havent met him or know anything about
>>> him.
>>>
>>> secondly, godhra remains as divided as it was. there is a municipal
>>> election
>>> on april 21 in the town. The BJP leadership has clearly spelt out that
>>> they
>>> dont care about those 9000-10000 votes from the muslim community in the
>>> town. signal faliya, 1.5 kilometres away from Godha railway station,
>>> mostly
>>> comprising of the muslims doesnt have roads connecting the houses. during
>>> the rains, the whole of the area remains submerged. on the other side of
>>> the
>>> railway station a few hundred meters ahead modi on march 17 unveiled a
>>> former IAF jet as a symbol of defence and security in the country
>>> completely
>>> turning a blind eye towards signal faliya or polan bazar in godhra where
>>> most of the muslims stay. contesting the municipal elections would be
>>> murli
>>> moolchandani, a VHP member, who was caught in the tehelka sting.
>>>
>>> third, noorani mohalla and K G park, two rehabilitatee colonies comprising
>>> of riot affected muslims even now doesnt have water supply or any kinds of
>>> roads leading to the houses. it is on the outskirts of Vadodara on ajwa
>>> road. please do check it out when you can. it is worse than a
>>> concentration
>>> camp with families trying to dirt clogging up the drains and water from
>>> the
>>> refuse collecting right front of the houses. two kilometers ahead there is
>>> a
>>> hospital for lepers -- the refuse from that hospital also comes and
>>> gathers
>>> in the area. mind you its on the Ajwa road of Vadodara city.
>>>
>>> third, ward no 3 of halol municipality. the councillor, saleem meer ended
>>> his fast yesterday (sunday) because all this years that place did not have
>>> a
>>> water connection while waters of Narmada has reached other nine wards of
>>> the
>>> town. ask the municipal board president, Nitin Shah about why there is a
>>> neglect, he will give you prompt reply saying that "ye to yaha ke nahi
>>> hai".
>>>
>>>
>>> fourth, since you are big fan of modi, you must have heard him. if he is
>>> talking about a police officer in his speech especially when he referred
>>> to
>>> mumbai police chief, gafoor, after 26/11 attacks, he said started his
>>> statement saying a police officer *that too a muslim. *his attitude
>>> continues to anti-muslim save for some of his muslim followers from
>>> Surat (always used a propaganda too erase the riots with a statement such
>>> as
>>> shias and vohras are with modi and sunnis are the ones who create
>>> problems) who after the riots accompanied him everywhere because they had
>>> specific business interests.
>>>
>>> i think you have absolutely no idea of Gujarat. And also gujarati people
>>> do
>>> not neccessarily treat muslim people badly, however, the political
>>> establishment has planned out its policies in such a way that they are
>>> reduced to second class citizens. however, there are sucess stories, own
>>> will power such as Prof Bandukwala which is independent and praiseworthy
>>> and
>>> should not be read in the context of treating someone as first class or
>>> second class citizen. you are offcourse free to have your opinion, but i
>>> would invite you to come and look around here in Vadodara. you can reply
>>> back on this space. i will guide you how you can get to vadodara.
>>>
>>> -anupam
>>> On 6/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Venugopalan,
>>>>
>>>> What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who
>>>> died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence.
>>>>
>>>> Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in
>>>> Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be
>>>> punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta
>>>> working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu,
>>>> Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even
>>>> she
>>>> has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her
>>>> neutrality?
>>>> This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of
>>>> funds.
>>>>
>>>> What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as
>>>> II
>>>> class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is
>>>> also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has
>>>> stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II
>>>> class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of
>>>> community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The
>>>> incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their
>>>> home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for
>>>> rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who
>>>> wants
>>>> to keep alive this issue forever!
>>>>
>>>> People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this
>>>> and
>>>> started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly environment.
>>>> Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor Bandukwala
>>>> and
>>>> many others has confirmed this way back and continue today telling in
>>>> many
>>>> open discussion forum.
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you
>>>> and
>>>> take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself
>>>> whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim
>>>> friend
>>>> to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is
>>>> not
>>>> at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very
>>>> harmony
>>>> without any fear and grudges.
>>>>
>>>> Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati
>>>> community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard
>>>> truth.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> Bipin
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Venugopalan K M
>>>> To: sarai-list
>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Bipin,
>>>>
>>>> I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here.
>>>> Why don't you dispute what is already given there  on the basis of merit
>>>> and substance?
>>>> What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta?
>>>> And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"?
>>>>
>>>>  About the Muslim citizens of  Gujarat, again you arrogate to  yourself
>>>> the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand
>>>> people
>>>> were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes
>>>> since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being
>>>> treated as second class citizens, are  they being treated as
>>>> non-citizens?
>>>> Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others
>>>> to
>>>> meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in
>>>> Gujaratin your imagination?
>>>>
>>>> Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to
>>>> stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by
>>>> Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because
>>>> the
>>>> killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not  God to ensure
>>>> them
>>>> impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the
>>>> shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what
>>>> transpired after Godhra.
>>>>
>>>> >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in
>>>> >Gujarat"
>>>>
>>>> How  cool!
>>>> How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire
>>>> population
>>>> confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands
>>>> and homes!
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Venu.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   Dear All,
>>>>
>>>>   Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It
>>>> is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in
>>>> Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta
>>>> and their cottary) and you will have truth.
>>>>
>>>>   Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on
>>>> discussion,
>>>> they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety
>>>> in
>>>> Gujarat
>>>>
>>>>   thanks
>>>>   BIPIN
>>>>   _________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
>>>> _________________________________________
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>>> _________________________________________
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>>
>>
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