[Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force

[Rahul Asthana]

Dear Anupam,
I repeat,I was not making an analogy between home and nation.Read this quote from Shuddha again-
"I think the detention of any human being on the grounds that he is 
crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is an affront to 
our common humanity."
I was implying by my question that there can be valid reasons for detention of a human being "on the grounds that he is crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border."

Hope this helps.
Thanks
Rahul

--- On Sat, 6/20/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
> Dear Rahul,
> 
> "Do you think that homes should be locked? Do you think
> that people should
> be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes at all
> times?"
> 
> what were you referring to when you posed this question to
> shuddha and made
> it publicly available to other readers on this list? a
> burglary in your
> house? in that case i think i misread this whole thread to
> be borders and a
> photographer, as many of the readers pointed out about the
> incident being an
> incursion and other such things. however, we were talking
> about shahidul
> alam. so if its a straw man, which is an informal fallacy
> about
> misrepresentation of opponent's argument then your are
> committing the
> fallacy of complex question when you posed the above
> question. i mean anyone
> would say a "no" to "Do you think that people should be
> allowed unrestricted
> entry to other peoples homes at all times?". But if this
> same question is
> used to pose, what some may call the larger debate, "Do you
> think foreigners
> should be allowed unrestricted entry to other nation
> states?" you may get a
> very different opinion. i personally have a problem with
> such questions.
> 
> thanks anupam
> 
> 
> On 6/20/09, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Dear Shuddha
> >
> > First things first. Reading about encroachments on a
> daily basis by people
> > for living or for occupational purposes, I am not
> naive or romantic to
> > think
> > that people follow laws. In fact, my belief is that in
> each nation-state,
> > or
> > state-nation, people always want to break the law, and
> it's the fear that
> > the law may catch them, which makes them follow the
> law.
> >
> > Second. Opening the borders for free movement of goods
> and people is indeed
> > a great idea. But what about the intentions of the
> Pakistani and the Indian
> > elite? We have a Pakistani elite (headed by the Army
> there), whose basic
> > intention is 'to bleed India with a thousand cuts',
> and therefore some way
> > or the other, terror attacks are taking place across
> the nation. One may
> > say
> > that there is no proof of the fact that Pakistan is
> behind attacks (even
> > say
> > 26/11), but my argument is simply this: how come when
> diplomatic pressure
> > was applied after 26/11, no terror attack has taken
> place in India?
> >
> > Before that, terror attacks were common every 2-3
> months in one or the
> > other
> > part of the country. And in 2004-05 there were hardly
> any terror attacks.
> > It's October 2005 blasts in Delhi which started this
> trend, and ironically
> > this is the time when the peace process between India
> and Pakistan seemed
> > to
> > have got stuck. How come relations with Pakistan and
> timing of terror
> > attacks are coincidental.
> >
> > Equally, I would not be surprised if the Indian elite
> indulges in the same
> > game (through RAW and other agencies), in the NWFP and
> other areas of
> > Pakistan. After all, the idea may be that internal
> troubles in Pakistan
> > force it to think about its' own existence rather than
> concentrating on
> > its'
> > eastern neighbour. And who can forget that under
> Indira Gandhi we did send
> > spies to Pakistan. The only thing may be that RAW may
> have declared it
> > doesn't send spies, when it may actually do so.
> >
> > With this kind of a situation, opening the borders
> without checks and
> > balances is going to lead to disaster. And plus, you
> need the people on
> > both
> > sides of the border backing it. Now the BPL population
> in India is more
> > concerned with its livelihood demands, so also the BPL
> population in
> > Pakistan. So are most of the people there, except the
> elites. And the
> > elites
> > turn the way media and propaganda runs. So that's the
> end of that move.
> >
> > Directly asking for radical moves is not going to give
> us anything. This is
> > something the British learnt in getting through trade
> concessions in India
> > and China before establishing their supremacy in both
> countries for getting
> > what they wanted. This is something the experiences of
> Gandhi tell us. And
> > this is equally something Obama is trying, in my
> perception. And that's
> > why,
> > Shuddha jee, I feel you are being romantic.
> >
> > We don't want guns from either side to go across to
> the other, we want
> > butter. Therefore, to begin with, what we need to do
> is to learn from
> > Indo-China relationship. This means that we first
> allow movement of goods
> > (unfortunately, these have to be checked), to an
> extent where trade is so
> > much that interdependence forces both the elites to
> shelve their current
> > nefarious plans for once and for all. Secondly, we do
> require the movement
> > of people, so let us have bus services and train
> services between the two
> > countries.
> >
> > And may be it's now time that at least in Punjab (if
> not in Kashmir), let
> > us
> > go for an border (with checks again) and allowing
> people to visit each
> > other. Equally let the two sides of Kashmiris visit
> each other through bus
> > services. What's the harm in that?
> >
> > For the other borders like Indo-Bangla (Bangladesh)
> border too, we need to
> > go on a state to state case, and to reach the final
> step of open border, we
> > must take steps or a leap depending on the situation.
> For example, with
> > Bhutan itself, why not start this at least?
> >
> > Different borders require different levels to begin
> with, but the final
> > goal
> > is same. The only thing is that the steps have to be
> tweaked to reach that
> > goal. Otherwise, we may never begin at all. And we
> need to do this. And
> > that
> > is why I feel we need to pressurize the Indian state
> (being Indian
> > citizens), to do this. I do believe that to go to
> places you have mentioned
> > in your other mail, you would have secured a passport
> and a visa, and that
> > you would have done as an Indian citizen. So also,
> many facilities you
> > would
> > be accruing as an Indian citizen in the nation.
> >
> > Therefore, whether we like it or not, we are Indian
> citizens (unfortunately
> > or fortunately is one's own way of thinking about
> this). What we do need to
> > do, is to think beyond our own state and look at human
> beings as one
> > entity,
> > not as Indians, Americans or Brazilians and thus
> separate entities. (These
> > are just identities on which people must not be
> divided). And thus, we need
> > to look at the final goal as this, but start from
> rudimentary steps.
> > Remember, we have to take all with us, for that is
> what we refer to as
> > 'inclusive development'. Otherwise, we can also shout
> and those opposing us
> > can also shout, and we will never move forward.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rakesh
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