[Reader-list] Is India secular

Thu Mar 19 20:21:14 IST 2009

Dear Shivam

You seem to have made a habit of  giving your own convoluted interpretation of something that has not even been stated by me. It is a disgusting habit. It does not speak well of you as a person or your professional capabilities.

Why is this so? You seem to be a person of reasonable intellect. What drives you to this deviant manner of conversing? Are you so blinded by preconceived notions about a person that you can neither think nor act in a rational manner?

If I examine or analyse or state various positions held on an issue that does not necessarily mean that I subscribe to any one of those. You shouId learn to make this differentiation. You most of all should be able to appreciate such objectivity since you are supposed to be a journalist (by your own admission)

Also dismissing something I have said as 'bunkum' or 'ludicrous' is only a reflection of your own inability to recognise the possibility of points of view that might be different from yours and could be as pertinent as you think your own are. 

Actually I am tiring of trying to have a rational conversation with you. Maybe you only deserve abuse.

Patience I tell myself.

Will you please explain to me:

- Where and how did I justify the slogan "Let Muslims go to Pakistan". I stated (in the context of the discussion) that it was an attitude that existed. Does stating the existence of such an attitude in India mean that I subscribe to it? Do you disagree that such an attitude exists? The context in which I mentioned this attitude was that there does exist a bias against Muslim refugees and was trying to analyse the "why" of it.

- You are free to disagree with my contention that "  the manner in which Islam has been propagated and is still being propagated combined with actions in the name of Islam do not make Muslims the most favoured people that would be welcomed with open arms in any part of the world. Muslims are suspect." 

    Your simply dismissing that as "bunkum" is not an argument against my contention but a meaningless childish retort. Makes me question your intellect and attitude towards having a meaningful conversation.

- Again, your calling my statement "India is not a Nation State" as being 'ludicrous' is of no consequence unless you tell me why it is 'ludicrous'. You should consider this that maybe you are indoctrinated into thinking in a particular manner and/or taking for granted some notions that are popular amongst some. Maybe you need to open your mind and get out of compartmentalised thinking. Preconceived opinions bereft of any rationalised thought seem to be your habit.

- With your line thrown at me "Go and make your Akhand Bharat first and then we will talk" you outdid yourself in your own foolishness. Tis so because I do not subscribe to that concept or similar Hindutvavaadi precepts. You can understand how distasteful I found your words

There are other comments you have made. I agree with some and disagree with some. On some I would have liked a further exchange. 

You will also understand that with this recognition of your prejudiced attitude which prevents you from registering what actually has been said one questions the spending of time in trying to have a meaningful interaction with you. 

Oh! I forgot that you pre-empted me on that. You have already banished me with your parting words:

"""""  But one can't even have such a conversation with you when you say such ludicrous things as India is not a nation-state. Go and make your Akhand Bharat and then we'll talk. """"

Such a loss to me.

Kshmendra

--- On Wed, 3/18/09, shivam at kafila.org <shivam at kafila.org> wrote:

From: shivam at kafila.org <shivam at kafila.org>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is India secular
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: "Shivam V" <lists at shivamvij.com>, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 9:56 PM

Dear Kshmendra,

What I meant to say was that Pakistani Muslims won't be able to
imagine getting Indian citizenship the way Pakistani Hindus can. So
perhaps this was more complicated than Hindu-Muslim, it is
India-Pakistan at the same time. But my statement stands because the
Pakistani Hindus who come all know through their relatives who are
already here as to where in Delhi they have to go and file
aplications, despite knowing only Sindhi and Urdu, for Indian
citizenship and the long process of naturalisation follows with a lot
of harassment and red tape. (Praise be upon Manto.)

The rest don't have even this privilege, except Afghan Sikhs. So
that's why I wonder if this bodes well for a country that claims to be
secular. So while this may not really be surprising, it is certainly
detestable. Perhaps not for you but certainly for me. The two reasons
you cite, one is history and the second is bunkum. I am shocked to see
you justify the Hindutva slogan 'Let-Muslims-go-to-Pakistan'.

As for Constitutional ideals, if they have to be made light of let's
just throw the book away and have anarchy. Ideals must also always be
striven for. They may not be fully achieved but must always be tried
to be fully achieved. The 'selective secularism' business is false
propaganda and I am not going to waste time arguing with you about it.

Nor am I interested in wasting my time in making religion-wise tables
of NRIs and those giving up Indian citizenship, but I share your
perception that motherland-loving Hindus would top the list, not least
because of their population. Yes, Indian Muslims haven't been running
to Pakistan for citizenship but if people like Modi, Varun Gandhi and
the general RSS goons have their way that too will happen one day.
Varun Gandhi, who says he is afraid of Muslim names, will then live in
peace and Hindus will achieve nirvana.

Yes, Bangladeshi Muslims who do come to India, those Bangladeshi
Muslims who come illegaly for economic reasons, those who came legally
during the war, Indian Bengali Muslims who came as Partition refugees,
Indian Bengali Muslims who were always from the west of Bengal - yes,
asking all of them about how secular India is and how communal some
Hindus are would definitely be a good idea. The same question should
also be put to Bangladeshi Hindus. (We're agreeing too much these
days.)

As for the freedom movement in Kashmir, which has both theological and
secular underpinnings, I support it because of the values with which
India was created and the number one value is that of freedom. I think
that if a people want to be free they should be free, if a people want
to live in an Islamic state they should be allowed to do so, if they
want to live in a Hindu state they should be allowed to do so. I want
to live in a secular-nation state, and so do most Indians. In Kashmir,
opinion on this is divided, as to what they want, and to say that the
movement is 100% Islamic is far from the truth, as if the issue is one
of the Book and the Gun and not regional identity, Indian atrocities,
etc.

More importantly, I think that the letter of the Indian constitution
should be implemented in Kashmir, and the special status of Kashmir in
the Indian Constitution be restored, as it has been rendered
meaningless because of the Army occupation and AFSPA, the special Army
law.

But one can't even have such a conversation with you when you say such
ludicrous things as India is not a nation-state. Go and make your
Akhand Bharat and then we'll talk.

best
shivam

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Dear Shivam
>
> I wanted to tackle this issue separately (too many thoughts muddle me up)
>
> You wrote "......no question of Muslims from Peshawar fleeing to
India  ......... The reason why this causes me some discomfort is because it
makes it sound like India
> is a Hindu country and not a secular country"
>
> That is confusing since you had written prior to it " Afghan Muslims
who continue to flee the same Taliban and continue to pour into India"
>
> Perhaps the point you were trying to make is that there is a bias in
India against "Muslim" Refugees.
>
> Even in the absence of data, purely on an anecdotal or on your "I
feel" basis I would not be surprised if it is true. It should not surprise
you either. It is only to be expected.
>
> Two factors that certainly would contribute to any such attitude towards
Muslim Refugees are:
>
> - The partitioning of India and Pakistan being carved out for Muslims. It
should not be difficult to appreciate that in the minds of many Indians it was
an abuse of Bharat and that Islam (read Muslims) having been made welcome in
Bharat ended up stealing part of Bharat. One need not agree or disagree with
such attitudes or argue over interpretations or challenge them on the basis of
precedential history. Such attitudes exist. "Now that Muslims have their
own land let them stay there (or even) leave India and go there"
>
> - The second factor is that the manner in which Islam has been propagated
and is still being propagated combined with actions in the name of Islam do not
make Muslims the most favoured people that would be welcomed with open arms in
any part of the world. Muslims are suspect. One could argue about it and argue
over it but that does not change the current reality of the attitude towards
Muslims. Ironically Muslims are even suspect in the eyes of other Muslims
(obvious references).
>
> That still leaves the question "Is India secular?". How can one
answer that.
>
> In any country the Constitution is the Ideal. It is the Vision Document.
It is the Mission Statement. Nothing in the Constitution of India comes readily
to my mind that would suggest that India is not a secular country. On the
contrary we are all familiar with the whine that there is 'selective
secularism' in India that favours the minorities (read Muslims as the
target).
>
> Agreed that actual practice may not be very close to the desired Ideal.
But I do not think it is very far either.
>
> It would be interesting (especially for you as a journalist) to source
some data that might give us some guidelines. We need to find out the numbers of
Indian Non-Resident Expatriates in various parts of the world, the tabulation of
this data religion wise and additionally  for comparison the religion-wise
break-up of those who have surrendered their Indian Citizenship.
>
> My observations and anecdotal experiences (of over 20 years) suggest to me
that from amongst those who surrender their Indian Citizenship, Muslims are the
lowest percentage-wise (of those who have lived as Non-Resident expatriates).
Christians I would reckon are the the highest percentage-wise.
>
> Even if this is not correct, there is no significantly noticeable
incidence of Indian Muslims surrendering their citizenship in percentages far
out-stripping others.
>
> I will recognise here that the appropriate educational qualifications
make it easier for Non-Muslims (who are generally better educated) to emigrate
to countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada where you can 'buy'
citizenship. I could not swear by it though given that the Kerala Muslim is as
educated as the Kerala Hindu, the Andhra Muslim is as educated or uneducated as
the Andhra Hindu and the Punjabi Hindu (predominantly unskilled and semi-skilled
labour is quite uneducated)
>
> There are Indian Muslim NRIs who are humongously rich, who could emigrate
with not just family and clan but complete villages  and yet there is not one
such example known to me.
>
> Interestingly, from amongst the Muslim NRIs, who do emigrate to other
countries, it would only be the rarest of rare cases who shifts to Pakistan.
(Generally the exceptions are those who get married to Pakistanis and have no
choice.)
>
> Somewhere in all of that, to some degree, might be the answer to "Is
India secular?"  One could also ask the Bangladeshi Muslims who
'pour' into India.
>
> I cannot help asking you a question. Dont you think that there is a
hypocrisy inherent in someone who is concerned about the 'secular'
credentials of India and simultaneously is supportive of or sympathetic towards
the "Azaadi" movement in Kashmir which when shorn of the deceitful
lies describing it as being elsewise is simply an Islamic Movement?
>
> I would ask a similar question of those who pontificate philosophy
denigrating Nation States (criticizing India although India is not a Nation
State) and at the same time support or are sympathetic towards the creation of
a Nation State (Islamic) under the Kashmir "Azaadi" Movement.
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Shivam V <lists at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>
> From: Shivam V <lists at shivamvij.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu families in Pakistan feel scared, India
grants Visa
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:01 AM
>
> Dear Kshmendra,
>
> Thanks for posting this and bringing our attention to it. However,
> there is nothing unusual about it. Pakistani Hindu migration to India
> continues on an almost daily basis. I once did a story on them. I went
> to the Bhati mines area of Chattarpur in Delhi and met a family of 11
> that had arrived just two days ago. There are at least a hundred
> thousand Pakistani Hindus in Rajasthan, and with some leadership and
> organisation some of them have been getting Indian citizenship. This
> shows how the "long" Partition "continues" in the most
> literal sense
> of the word "continues". This is just like the Partition
continues
> over the unsettled dispute over the Kashmir Valley and the constant,
> complaining allegations about "Bangaldeshis" who come to India,
the
> corresponding issues of "vote bank politics" and them
'snatching
> away'
> jobs from Bihari labourers.
>
> Firstly, the situtaion of the Pakistani Hindu refugees in India is
> very bad. Indian red tape deals with them in the most insensitive
> manner, makes sure that not only their visas but also passports
> expire, and then expects them to have the money to get new passports
> from the Pakistan High Commission, which is most uncooprative. So,
> like most refugees, they just disappear in the mass of the
> 'unorganised sector' of the Indian economy, away from the watchful
> eyes of an Indian state that couldn't care less. Most Pakistani Hindu
> refugees are from Sindh as another posting on this list shows.
>
> At the same time, being Hindus they still have it much easier than,
> say the Afghan Muslims who continue to flee the same Taliban and
> continue to pour into India and work in the same unorganised sector.
> There is of course no question of Muslims from Peshawar fleeing to
> India despite India having more Muslims than Pakistan. The reason why
> this causes me some discomfort is because it makes it sound like India
> is a Hindu country and not a secular country that treats all refugees
> equally.
>
> This discrimination exists within internally displaced refugees in
> India as Shuddhabrata Sengupta once showed on this list.
>
> If you're Tibetan you're god; if you're Bangladeshi Hindu
> you're just
> Hindu and thus Indian; if you're Afghan Sikh you will easily get
> Indian citizenship; if you're Sri Lankan Tamil you will live in
> abominable conditions in refugee camps and the Tamilians will play
> politics in your name but never do anything for your plight.
>
> I think it is important that India passes a uniform national refugee
> law and policy and shows compassion towards refugees from all parts of
> the world equally.
>
> I hope you agree with me.
>
> best
> shivam
>
> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
<kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Versions of the news item reproduced below (from PunjabNewsline) have
also
> appeared in:
>>
>> - ZEENEWS "Pak Hindu families seekl India citizenship"
>>     
http://international.zeenews.com/inner1.asp?aid=203968&sid=HEL
>>
>> - DAWN "Fata’s 35 Hindus migrate to India"
>>
>
 http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/fatas-35-hindus-migrate-to-india--bi
>>
>> Kshmendra
>>
>>
>> "Hindu families in Pakistan feel scared, India grants Visa"
>> JAGMOHAN SINGH
>> Saturday, 07 March 2009
>>
>> AMRITSAR: Indian Government has granted one year visa to 35 Hindu
migrants
> from Pakistan who faced threat to their lives in Pakistan, particularly in
> tribal areas. The group including 16 men, 16 females and three children
had
> crossed over to india few days back.
>>
>> The Pak Hindus narrated their woes to Indian authorities. They carried
the
> nightmare, experienced Immediately after they went to Delhi to get
extension in
> visa and permission to stay in Amritsar. All the families arrived in
Amritsar on
> Saturday after obtaining visa for one year.
>>
>> Jagdish Sharma resident of tribal area near Peshawar in Pakistan said,
> “We were living in Pakistan under severe fear psychosis due to the
domination
> of strong group of Taliban people who are running parallel Government. In
such
> circumstances, Hindus and Sikh families were not safe, especially our
female
> members. We preferred to migrate in India, at least here in India we can
breathe
> out with peace and calm mind since our families are safe in India”.
>>
>> Adding further he said, “We strongly urge the Government of India to
> allow us stay here in India permanently, since we don’t want to go back
in the
> hellish atmosphere where there is no life security”.
>>
>> Jagdish Sharma said, “All the 35 members of four Hindu families
would
> never prefer to return to Pakistan. Now we have intention to settle here
> permanently and expect that Government of India would never disappoint the
> Pakistan based Hindus who arrived here after being plundered in
Pakistan”.
>>
>> Hardwari Lal resident of Orkzai nearly 180 kilometers from Peshawar
said,
> “I was running my grocery shop there which was forcibly took over by the
> fundamentalist people who also took possession of our entire property.
Even Sikh
> Gurdwara (Sikh shrine) as well as Hindu Temples were not safe, since none
of the
> priest of respective religions dare to stay there for required necessary
ritual
> daily prayers. Pakistan Government has appointed local executive
magistrates as
> a care taker for religious shrines in the tribal area of Pakistan”.
>>
>> Hardwari said, “We strongly urge the Government of India to do the
> needful for us so that we could settle down in India and could reestablish
our
> business here as there is no chance for us to go back to Pakistan”.
>>
>> Rekha a female migrant from Peshawar said, “ We have heaved sigh of
> relief while reaching on Indian territory, since every morning we were
observing
> close encounter to death as life is highly unsecured. My parents were
always
> worried about me and my brothers due to domination of fundamentalist
people.
> Being a girl I Never went out of my house and remained confined with in
the four
> walls of our house. I never got privilege to obtain education, since girls
were
> not allowed to attend school in the tribal area of Pakistan”.
>>
>> Adding further Rekha said, “There was no life in the tribal area of
> Pakistan, as there was no liberty for   women to move out, if gets
chance only
> in Burqa (clad) while covering face and body with black gown. In Pakistan
> Taliban considers Hindu community very meek and feeble. Numerous Hindu
families
> still were languishing in the tribal area of Pakistan as unable to get
visa for
> India which they were facing acute hardship. Since for visa everybody has
to
> appear before the Indian High Commission and for women it is difficult to
come
> out from house to move out from the tribal area”, she quipped.
>>
>> http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/15562/40/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
>
> --
> mail at shivamvij dot com
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>