[Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree
Inder Salim
indersalim at gmail.com
Fri May 1 10:30:11 IST 2009
Dear Sengupta
thanks for comments
true, it is about market, and about some new systems to emerge.....
after all the politics is about solving this distribution problem
right now it is not working, perhpas, we are interested in mango
only, not its mangoness,
just next to the Mango tree , there is a white sweet mulberry tree.
mostly birds enjoy its corp, and i see everybody is health, and there
is no distribution problem, it is only with human being,
neither we can become birds nor human being in essence.
so there has to be subjectivity in place to handle the object, here
the product.
now how will you resolve the problems created by big landlords who are
living in metro across the world but their ancestral orchids are
managed by their employees back home. How is equal distribution
possible if there is no rethinking about why there is Mr. A who owns
the entire fruit simply because his predecessors had a chance to own
the large mountain or so, and now there will be continuity of the same
for ten thousand years,
who is robbing the chances for human being to become sensible, is it
not the Baniya ( the capitalist ) in disguise or otherwise,
my mother would tell me a bed time story, when there was fight for a
bread between two monkeys , and with the appointment of a Bear
becomes a judge, how it becomes worse,
who divides the bread unequally every time, and takes away the heavier
part, with an eye to make more heavier on the other side of the
balance.The balancing part was of course taken by Bear himself, and in
the end the bread disappeared without any benefit to monkeys
right now we all are monkeys and are content with a Judge Bear who his
own axe to grind,
love and regard
inder salim
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 7:58 PM, subhrodip sengupta
<sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
> Just would like to elaborate or correct myself on the distribution problem, fruits means fruits for whom for the labour, for the Landowner or farmer, who invests and is labourer as well in many cases or the general people, and if fruits need must be divided in what ratio? Qualitatively who adds to the fruit should get something in return as well so that he is made as happy, not as staring at others having it, makes some sense, or is it only when we are considering few people owning scarce lands and more scarce trees? In what ratios, do passer-byes get fruits on the ground, good ones, and why or on what ground is this political arrangement made, are they still happy,
> Hopefully some more thought in this fashion, which I hope is not too abstract, on the hidden conditions, might help. Espicially from more enlightened minds!
> Regards,
> Subhrodip.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 7:43:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree
>
>
> Dear Kshmendra,
> Thank you for your Generous remarks, and enlightening views on this post(no sourness intended!). Now I too find some dynamism from the original discussion that has developed to your 'Where in .... are people free to eat (any fruit) from their trees on the road side?' 'people means anyone and everyone'. Quite illuminating if we find some healthy way out. I do not know about apricots and Kashmir, but in Himachal Pradesh's dominant apple growing areas, one is not allowed to break an apple from the owner's tree, but if a fruit falls on the ground, passers by (not necessarily tourists alone) can keep it. Off course it implies that apple yeild is in abundance there or else why should a fruit fall on the ground, unattended? Following surplus maximisaon, dimminishing returns, one gets to fruits harvested at sub-optimal time, but what if there is abbundance, prices falling to 7-8 rs a kilo? Is this possible given the pressures on the
> envoirnment? If yes, then HP might throw some light!
> Regards,
> Subhrodip.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. <reader-list at sarai.net>; subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 4:28:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree
>
>
> Dear Subhrodip
>
> First an admission. After my last post to you, I realised that the manner in which I seemed to making generalisations about Pakistanis was as disgusting and unacceptable as Inder's generalisation about "baniyas".
>
> I am chastised. Have to sort myself out.
>
> I continue to be fascinated by the manner in which you construct your posts. I am not used to this style even though my own daughter writes in a similar fashion when she is trying to educate me on some topic. She loses me. My limitations.
>
> I think I did get some sense of what you were saying.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
> From: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree
> To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 12:40 PM
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co..in>
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 12:35:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree
>
>
> Dear Kshmendra,
> thans for your well-sorted out response, indeed
> making caste of society fight against each other
> wouldnt put an end to the tendancies which we are critiqing, neither would
> nation-chauvinist attitude help, whatever qualm I might have with my neighbour,
> I would not implant a bomb in his territory, that would harm many others,(who
> knows, including kids of my family?), but somewhere within the motions of the
> society, do we find tendencies, dominant ones, once subscibed to by a certain
> caste, now having spread to many leading such a lifestyle. These then become
> 'values', values of deserting ones old parents and going abroad, values
> ofstaying away from ones family for days together, or other values not
> necessarily concerned with this such as late night partying, rave-partying etc..
> For some it is inevitable, irresistable, to quote one of the leaders 'sar
> char kar bole' to othe it becomes intolerable, and infringing into their
> peace of mind, so that they decide to step ahead and do something about it! When
> there is a miniature genocide, some look at it as a
> miniature civil war, some even say it is terror sponsored, some say it
> challenges the integrity of nation as they take sides of police, and
> consciously or otherwise favour the vested interests ehom the regime, I should
> say alas was favouring consciously, some others say it was a Genocide. The
> questions involved are those of scales, values, and whoch motions does one
> identify using those values. Some values of the Baniyas has been kept alive in
> the mordern, indeed many ofhrough a our indegenous businessmen are caste
> biased, and they'll take you a story of rishtadari, thiugh they may not even
> trace back the long chain, what they mean is Jati, or may be sharing the same
> gotra, though the latter is rarely the case. As Inder has noted, I am greatful
> that he did, I would like to go a bitt off his analysis which I find a
> bit spiritualstic, I would rather, sourly(like an unripe mango) say these
> tendencies materialise, but again jati-system did some
> harshness to the women, so knowing the 'spirits' of by fellow people,
> I would not like to provide a deterministic tone, progeny being a vital factor
> in the villages, 'Ok am a baniya, my forefathers thought like this, I must
> share the same thoughts!' Sometimes by using strange words you may force
> somebody to think, when you deny certain values in your speeches, you force
> people to recognise rergressive tendancies, when you swear to cut the hands of
> people who disturb members of your community, or that police tortured you saying
> your mom is a muslim, you are reminding people of counter communal tendancies,
> and the nature of secularism, from it's positive dictionary
> meaning,to secular governments intent(implications), why is it silent to your
> people, people, to whom we are communicating do have their own abilty to judge
> things, they do know, who this policeman is, better than many of us who stay in
> AC rooms and rely on mainly influential contacts to get
> the slightest works done, and they do decide based on their own judgement,
> values and interests, whether they want to live together or fight, whom to
> support and to what extent, when SSC results are not published before elections,
> I do see some arrangement in that independant fair function of the soverign
> state too, and thats why I often quote these elections in most places are a
> struggle for the nation not for it's people, for people would include into
> similar class people whom you do not like, and would be negative towards, thats
> where excessive Nation Chauvinism, calling Pakistani gives a value judgement of
> whatg you think about them, doesnt strongly bother me for I do not spend
> sleepless nights thinking about democracy or SWAT valley issues either, but
> might rightly bother some muslim brothers as some hindu brothers get bothered
> when they find a hindu in Pakistan in distress. And yes, when values need to
> be changed they need to be uprooted,
> isolated from the value system, so that they do not come back due to any
> accident, yes in this ecological or say eco-feminist challenge to such practises
> under Capitalist farming, we are reminded of many other adulterations from
> injections to colours to our well loved leaves (saags) to baingans, and pumpkins
> to our coloured potatoes, of how we do not know to jugje vegatbles, but turn
> essentially fetish, I also share my angush in which restaurants serve salads, ok
> some of them. The question then is about realising that such practises exist and
> to resist them ,not resist or fight against each other. THE idea is to influence
> and persuade people dominated by some practises not to do so, to uproot such
> values so that contertendancies do nor revrse them I call this phenomenon
> Majburi, the Object was a Mango, and how many of us again started fighting over
> it, People are instrinctively too chauvinist to correct themselves and this
> relates to how efficient one
> is, this applies to feudal ruling classes. When someone talks of Singur or
> Nandigram (polar issues), I do not feel ashamed, well MY dad is neither a a
> supprter of Sir Tata nor is he Tata himself, nor was I responsible to any
> big extent(so that epole do not crowd me for being insensitive) for the rape of
> this girl. One has to know why the other person is behaving thus, may be he is
> wrong, may be he is right! Else the idea of kin-pride, Nationalism etc is only
> to justify power and hiding the potent evil in their garbs, when some
> disturbance disarrays these evils, chaos starts which need to be Justified, but
> Alas can not be always!
> By the way does one know who the author of this passage is? IF
> somebody can get me the answer, I'd be greatful.
> thanks for reading(open ended)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> To: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009 3:10:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree
>
>
> Dear Subhrodip
>
> Sir!
>
> 1. May I first tell you how fascinated I am by the manner in which you
> (usually) construct your mails.
>
> 2. If typecasting a group / community with negative attributes is alright in
> any one case, then it has to be alright in every case. Such putting into
> compartments is very useful if the intention is to attack.. It is
> counterproductive if the intent is to understand.
>
> 3. The reference to Pakistan was made because such an attitude towards the
> "Hindu Baniya" used to be ingrained into the psyche of Pakistanis
> through their school textbooks. I do not know how it is now. At least the
> remanants of that can still be found in their Media (especially TV). And it
> would appear amongst some in India too. Do we have to re-inforce them? Should
> we?
>
> 4. Imagine if everyone was liberal with such typecasting. No do not imagine it,
> just see it happening all around us day in and day out:
>
> - Punjabis are this kind of people
> - Bengalis are this kind of people
> - Kashmiri Pandits are this kind of people
> - Kashmiri Muslims are this kind of people
> - Communists are this this kind of people
> - Capitalists are this kind of people
> - and on and on and on
>
> You can see how such rigid proclamations destroy ....... (open ended)
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
> --- On Tue, 4/28/09, subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
> From: subhrodip sengupta <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:09 PM
>
>
> very true sir, but why give Paki tone to it? There are hindu punjabis, biharis
> non-baniyas etc who share the same thing for hindu baniyas, and a second class
> to the marwaris. They do and it is well-noted in Hindu literature, I can tell
> you Bibhutibhusan, a bengali.
> And can for the sake of not attacking a caste, can we ignore it's tendancy?
> Ok, lets take it not that deeply, but strong feeling of author.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> To: reader-list <reader-list at sarai.net>; Inder Salim
> <indersalim at gmail..com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009 2:56:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree
>
> """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the
> traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about
> their personal benefits only.""""""
>
> Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist.
>
> Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the
> Pakistani Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It
> used be taught that way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still
> is.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree
> To: "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM
>
> --
> THE MANGO TREE
>
> The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but
> the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different
> seasons its centre of importance shifts, particularly when there are
> no mangoes on its branches.. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into
> my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure
> conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was
> always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs
> to the entire colony, a public space, where people relish their
> evening strolls, or let their children jump a little, and also
> scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees
> are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango
> Tree.
>
> Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the
> flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly
> thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among
> other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth
> to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow?
> As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth,
> naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call
> mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that
> account. But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and
> everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them..
> But there is some helplessness in their looking at them.
>
> The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the
> Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now
> they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree.
> True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they actually had planted
> the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel
> into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree. The
> 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First,
> Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some
> mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families
> which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the
> intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional
> to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree.
>
> The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure
> that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They
> don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray
> colony monkeys to come near this mango tree. They use all the ways
> and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree. They
> must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are
> still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its
> foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business
> community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their
> personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such
> families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism,
> like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man.. A limited thought,
> but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors,
> usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid,
> an oil well etc.. Right now, here in this colony, there are people who
> want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their
> share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea
> of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in
> minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a
> nest, or twig for a squirrel to jump from this tree to another tree.
>
>
> Yes, some children from outside, say from other underprivileged
> families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do
> come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree by throwing a
> stone or a small stick.. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their
> flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away.. The
> rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like
> these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I
> too happen to own a flat.
>
> The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop
> lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe
> crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies
> with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for ordinary
> pickle at the best.. The real mangos never see the light of the day.
>
> I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is
> such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the
> branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit
> becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where
> they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the
> very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green. Who knows if
> some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more
> golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by
> products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the
> Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is
> usually smarter than the actual mango.
>
> But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the
> trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and
> vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of
> business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So,
> has anybody ever tasted a real mango?
>
> The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of
> eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the
> people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let
> the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and
> neither let others to taste a real ripe one.
>
> So has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who
> deserves to eat that, and relish?
>
> please press to see mangoes
> http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/
>
> With love
> Inder salim
>
>
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
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