[Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims

Wed May 6 15:43:40 IST 2009

Dear Javed

I do not know what you needed convincing about but you say you are 'simply not convinced'. I cannot do much about that.

As for others having 'already taken care of the points' you would have engaged me on, I will take that up with the 'others' if I think I need to respond and also depending on who the 'other' is.

You have quoted me incompletely and by doing so altered the import of what I said.

I had written "flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim identity is sought to be displayed." You missed out on the last three words 'to be displayed'. 

That should not be difficult to understand, nor (in my opinion) should be problematic. Just like Hindus do, or Sikhs do, or Christians do with their flags, Muslims also fly the (crescent+star on green) flag at places where they want to display the Muslim identity. It could be a Mosque, a Dargah, a Mohalla, a Building, in a procession etc. Is there anything contentious or problematic about saying that?

That is not the stereotyping of Indian Muslims because all other religions also do it wherever they want to 'display' their individual religious identity.

I do understand your 'fight' against attempts to "create a monolith of Indian Muslims". There have been some very interesting and thought provoking posts on that topic on this List.

I think what has caused such sharp responses from you and others is my use of the two words "Indian Muslims". Unwarranted reactions I think because my comments were on the Flag. What else could I say in talking about the Flag other than it being an Islamic Flag used by Indian Muslims? Doesnt matter, I am used to such half thought out responses.

Talking about 'historicity', certainly you could talk about that with reference to the flags (or any other symbols) used by 'other communities and identities too'.  And of course you can question why 'saffron' has to be appropriated by Hindu-extremists. Go right ahead. 

As for asking me to stop talking about certain topics or asking certain kinds of questions, sorry I cannot accede to that. I will talk about whatever I want to talk about, because I do not promote or propagate either hate or divides. 

As you have mentioned, these opinions and suggestions of mine might bring me brickbats. Such brickbats would only be a display of inability or resistance to thinking over things. 

Kshmendra

--- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:

From: M Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 10:00 PM

Dear Kshmendra
I think Anupam and Taha have already taken care of the points I would
have engaged with you (and they communicate better than me). I am
simply not convinced with your answer. I found your phrase "flag flown
by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim identity is sought" very very
problematic. We fight against this stereotype everyday - you simply
are trying to create a monolith of Indian Muslims.

And, to heck with the historicity - I bloody well know that green
colour and cresent/star have not much significance in Islam. And one
could probably extend that historicity to other communities and
identities too. Why should saffron be appropriated only by the
Hindu-extremists? Has it got any historicity.

And please stop using statements like "These questions have to be
asked by Indian Muslims of themselves" - you said something similar
when talking about Quran and Hadis recently -- advicing the Muslims to
start reading Quran and hadis separately, and so on. You can have an
opinion of yours, but to suggest that so and so should start following
what I advocate, is something likely to bring brickbats for you.

cheers

J

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Dear Javed
>
> I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim
> identity is sought to be displayed.
>
> Surely you are not unfamiliar with that flag. It is in green colour and
and
> has a white crescent and a white star on it.
>
> In the context of talking about 'that' flag, your question
"Who is an Indian
> Muslim" is a meaningless one.
>
> The question is whether such a flag as described by me is used by Indian
> Muslims (wherever it may be used and whosoever amongst the Indian Muslims
> may use it) and whether 'that' flag gets confused with being the
Pakistani
> flag (which it closely resembles).
>
> The answer to both those questions is YES.
>
> One other question is whether such a flag has any significant historicity
> that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to
> that question is NO.
>
> I really do not need an answer from you. These questions have to be asked
by
> Indian Muslims of themselves and find their own answers. That exactly was
> how I had framed my comments.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> --- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: M Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 5:38 PM
>
> Dear Kshmendra
>
> Who is an Indian Muslim?
>
> We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be
> thinking about using the Islamic flag..."
>
> Javed
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
<kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> QUOTE:
>>
>> It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former
being
> the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter
> his
> military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small
> white
> and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE
>>
>> This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by
> Rahimullah Yusufzai.
>> http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825
>>
>> No green flag. No crescent and star on it.
>>
>> The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by
Indian
> Muslims has often caused misunderstandings.
>>
>> One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags
> being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken
the
> Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag.
>>
>> The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even
> Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing
it
> to
> be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with "
sickle
> (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol"
>> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html
>>
>> In an earlier mail I had commented:
>>
>> """""" If this is factual, then the
question
> arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the
> Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to
be
> close to being the flag of Pakistan? """"""
>> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html
>>
>> Just thinking aloud
>>
>> Kshmendra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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