[Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims

Fri May 8 15:03:30 IST 2009

bipin,

it is surely my problem only. you are free to say whatever u feel like and
then retract from your statements.

-anupam

On 5/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:

> objection was listed with teesta n arundhati anupam if u dont understand
> this ur proble. Also, i respect safdar hashmi but still not of the level of
> kabit n dadu yet.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
> c.anupam at gmail.com>
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 1:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>
>
>  bipin    to M, sarai-list
>> show details
>> May 7 (20 hours ago)      What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare
>> Arundhati Roy, Teesta
>>
>> Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu.
>>
>> Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one
>> should respect our historian
>>
>>
>> On 5/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have not put any apology at all, since I have never tried to tarnish
>>> safdar hashmi image. What ever wrong belief in your mind is ur problem I
>>> ma
>>> least concern
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
>>> c.anupam at gmail.com>
>>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Bipin,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar
>>>> hashmi
>>>> that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let
>>>> us
>>>> be
>>>> clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to
>>>> send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted
>>>> from
>>>> this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to
>>>> you
>>>> or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion.
>>>>
>>>> -anupam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Anupam,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for
>>>>> putting
>>>>> him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't
>>>>> understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before
>>>>> making any comment.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>> Bipin
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
>>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  dear kshmendra,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your
>>>>>> comments.
>>>>>> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but
>>>>>> yes
>>>>>> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as
>>>>>> i
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am
>>>>>> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any
>>>>>> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with regards and apologies
>>>>>> anupam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Dear Anupam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> abuse. Inder elsewhere  compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> lighthearted comment).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics
>>>>>>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator
>>>>>>> intervention
>>>>>>> can ensure that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> this public space too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> you are being unreasonable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has
>>>>>>> started,
>>>>>>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by
>>>>>>> Indian
>>>>>>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME
>>>>>>> Indian
>>>>>>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own
>>>>>>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by
>>>>>>> Javed
>>>>>>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the
>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a
>>>>>>> mistake
>>>>>>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very
>>>>>>> interesting comments on that particular issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian
>>>>>>> Muslim"
>>>>>>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> which is in the public space of discourse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN
>>>>>>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who -
>>>>>>> INDIAN
>>>>>>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type)
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that
>>>>>>> Identity
>>>>>>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain
>>>>>>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that
>>>>>>> Identity
>>>>>>> Type.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been
>>>>>>> exploited
>>>>>>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and
>>>>>>> practiced
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be
>>>>>>> idiotic
>>>>>>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have
>>>>>>> stated.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my
>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are
>>>>>>> ready
>>>>>>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express
>>>>>>> criticism
>>>>>>> about a religion, which I do not belong to."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will not dwell on those.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kshmendra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>*
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>>>>>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Kshmendra,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we
>>>>>>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some
>>>>>>> corner
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation,
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having
>>>>>>> clowns
>>>>>>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this
>>>>>>> country.
>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious
>>>>>>> identities.
>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is
>>>>>>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu
>>>>>>> identity
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing,
>>>>>>> questioning
>>>>>>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a
>>>>>>> religion,
>>>>>>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this
>>>>>>> majoritarian
>>>>>>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> mould
>>>>>>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> grow.
>>>>>>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out
>>>>>>> finer
>>>>>>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship,
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the
>>>>>>> effeminate
>>>>>>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma
>>>>>>> Gandhi’s
>>>>>>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s
>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced
>>>>>>> conversions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is
>>>>>>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and
>>>>>>> statistical
>>>>>>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are
>>>>>>> comfortable
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting
>>>>>>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist,
>>>>>>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land
>>>>>>> irrespective of what colour your flag is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anupam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________
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