[Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"

[yasir ~يا سر]

i tend to agree with you.

one has to sort for oneself
whether or not one is attached to particular groups/schools
some of which argue for relatively closed systems, which are problematic for
others,
whether for political or doctrinal reasons

best

y


On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Hi Yasir,
> Sorry if I misrepresented your position.My point is, in the absence of any
> central authority,any version cannot be effectively discredited. The powers
> that be can twist it to suit their needs;for eg. like what happened in Pak
> during Bhutto's and then in Zia's regime.
> You are taking an empirical view;which can be of archival importance but it
> doesn't have any prescriptive authority.It appears to me that the debate
> about real nature of Islam is ,for all practical purposes,academic.
>
> Thanks
> Rahul
>
> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"
> > To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 12:51 PM
> > Dear Rahul
> >
> > I dont know how you inferred that, or from where. but
> > taking yr question as
> > it is:
> >
> > I am not at all saying that the first is a valid
> > interpretation.
> > but i cannot deny that there are (and have been) people who
> > think it is a
> > valid interpretation throughout history. so it is also an
> > internal perrenial
> > problem to be dealt with without at all compromising on the
> > valid views. not
> > unlike a continuous movement or revolution. thats there
> > too.
> >
> > so I am saying some revivalists are plain wrong and
> > wrong-headed
> >
> > best
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Yasir,
> > > Are you saying that the extremist interpretation of
> > Islam is equally valid
> > > as the peace loving one?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rahul
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must
> > quit UK armed forces"
> > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 1:51 PM
> > > > the world has been modern for a long
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > this sort of statement that :: Mark that, he does
> > not
> > > > advise that
> > > > involvement in wars is forbidden in Islam.
> > ::
> > > > cannot be made.
> > > >
> > > > because :: there is no central authority to
> > decide this.
> > > > what you have is
> > > > all historical stuff of muslim kings.why should
> > one king,
> > > > one person,,one
> > > > family, one, tribe, one, language-speaker, one
> > > > neighbor.......be like
> > > > another muslim ??  or another conqueror. the
> > record is
> > > > actually is mixed but
> > > > overall not so bad. it is even remarkable and
> > uncomparable
> > > > in places. so why
> > > > not take that as a muslim characteristic ?
> > > >
> > > > and why don't you. its simply the mass of bias
> > amassing
> > > > itself.
> > > >
> > > > best
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
> > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Anupam
> > > > >
> > > > > When a non-citizen comes and tells the
> > citizens of a
> > > > country that they
> > > > > should not (in this case) join the Military,
> > that is
> > > > problematic. Moezi is
> > > > > free to issue his advisories in his own
> > country.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was quoting this an an example of why the
> > "loyalty
> > > > of Muslim citizens to
> > > > > their Non-Muslim countries tends to  be
> > viewed
> > > > with suspicion?". Because by
> > > > > not challenging such statements and not
> > asking such
> > > > persons to not interfere
> > > > > in their lives as citizens, they get
> > identified with
> > > > the statements. They
> > > > > damn well will be looked upon with
> > suspicions about
> > > > their loyalty to the
> > > > > country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Moezi advises Muslims "that their
> > involvement in the
> > > > Afghanistan and Iraq
> > > > > wars is forbidden by Islam."
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark that, he does not advise that
> > involvement in wars
> > > > is forbidden in
> > > > > Islam.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you think (as you seem to suggest) that
> > Moezi is a
> > > > 'peacenik', shouldnt
> > > > > he make a start with advising people in Iran
> > not to
> > > > join the Military in
> > > > > Iran.
> > > > >
> > > > > Moezi says Muslims are not allowed to kill
> > Muslims and
> > > > Christians are not
> > > > > allowed to kill Muslims. Are Muslims allowed
> > to kill
> > > > everyone else?
> > > > >
> > > > > Let us not be naive.
> > > > >
> > > > > """" Moezi believed that Islam and politics
> > were
> > > > “inter-mixed” because
> > > > > religion “could not be ignorant of social
> > issues.
> > > > And part of social issues
> > > > > is politics, therefore Islam should have
> > some sort of
> > > > eye on political
> > > > > issues”. """"""
> > > > >
> > > > > Fair enough and valid enough for your own
> > Islamic
> > > > country. I doubt it that
> > > > > it is acceptable to another Non-Islamic
> > country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Islam can keep keep all the 'eye' that it
> > wants to on
> > > > political issues but
> > > > > it should do so in Islamic Countries. When
> > your loud
> > > > pronouncements try to
> > > > > propagate/export that aspect of Islamicness
> > to the
> > > > Muslim citizens of a
> > > > > Non-Islamic country then you are creating
> > problems for
> > > > those Muslims.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kshmendra
> > > > >
> > > > > PS. Here is a quote from a participant in
> > the ongoing
> > > > congregation of
> > > > > Muslims (Tablighi) in Raiwind, Pakistan,
> > ranting
> > > > against the Taliban:
> > > > >
> > > > > """" ‘They call those who refuse to follow
> > their
> > > > brand of Islam infidels,
> > > > > not knowing they are inviting the wrath of
> > Allah the
> > > > almighty by killing
> > > > > Muslims, which I call an unholy crusade,
> > """"
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that. Allah's wrath is incurred if
> > Muslim kills
> > > > Muslim. It becomes an
> > > > > 'unholy crusade'. What happens when Muslim
> > kills
> > > > Non-Muslim? What defines a
> > > > > "holy crusade" ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Also note that Moezi is a Shia and the
> > Tabhligis are
> > > > Sunnis. Note the
> > > > > identicality of attitudes.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Mon, 11/16/09, anupam chakravartty
> > <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims
> > must quit UK
> > > > armed forces"
> > > > > To: "Rakesh Iyer" <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > > Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 7:21 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Ayatollah's words from Daily Mail
> > report:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > “Not only do I not accept it for Muslims
> > to go
> > > > there, I don’t accept
> > > > > non-Muslims to go there as well,” Moezi
> > said. “We
> > > > say that Muslims are
> > > > > not allowed to go and kill Muslims. Do you
> > think that
> > > > Christians are
> > > > > allowed to go and kill Muslims?”
> > > > >
> > > > > The cleric, 65, condemned the massacre in
> > Texas last
> > > > week of 13
> > > > > American soldiers at the Fort Hood base by a
> > Muslim
> > > > military
> > > > > psychiatrist and insisted that the incident
> > should not
> > > > be used to
> > > > > tarnish the image of the world’s 1.5
> > billion Muslim
> > > > population."
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Kshmendra,
> > > > >
> > > > > It is very clear that the appeal is not for
> > the
> > > > Muslims but for anyone
> > > > > who is opposed to the occupation of forces
> > in these
> > > > countries and also
> > > > > who are opposed to things like war in any
> > nation. I
> > > > think I can very
> > > > > well read it as a caution against any form
> > of war or
> > > > violence waged by
> > > > > anyone. Can we not say that Daily Mail was
> > wrong in
> > > > interpreting what
> > > > > this man was talking about? I am sure being
> > a Muslim,
> > > > and an Iranian
> > > > > is a peril in these times. Here allegiance
> > to a flag
> > > > is not the issue.
> > > > > In a phased manner thousands of young men
> > are exposed
> > > > to this conflict
> > > > > of energy-terror-security. after UK and US
> > have been
> > > > waging this war
> > > > > at the cost of these lives. would anyone
> > deny the
> > > > increasing number of
> > > > > coffins being brought back from Iraq and
> > Afghanistan?
> > > > there is no
> > > > > doubt that for a soldier a coffin of a
> > fellow comrade
> > > > is matter of
> > > > > pride and motivation, but what are these
> > soldiers
> > > > fighting for?
> > > > >
> > > > > -anupam
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/16/09, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message
> > ----------
> > > > > > From: Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > > > Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:41 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Muslims
> > must quit UK
> > > > armed forces"
> > > > > > To: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi (to all)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Today, after a long time, am I sending
> > one mail
> > > > to Sarai, having read
> > > > > some
> > > > > > of the most shocking kind of
> > statements,
> > > > presented in a very dubious
> > > > > manner
> > > > > > or shocking ways to prove that Muslims
> > are either
> > > > traitors, or that they
> > > > > > can't be loyal to anybody except to the
> > Ummah.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is disgusting that some people have
> > assumed
> > > > that Muslims are loyal not
> > > > > to
> > > > > > their own conscience or even to the
> > nations which
> > > > they are citizens of,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > to the Ummah, Mecca or the Saudi
> > regime, or to
> > > > the Mullahs and Maulvis
> > > > > who
> > > > > > for them are more important than what
> > the law of
> > > > the land states. Some
> > > > > > people on this forum, as also elsewhere
> > across
> > > > the nation, media and
> > > > > among
> > > > > > others, have thought this to be
> > obvious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is very wrong on any basis to make
> > such
> > > > conjectures and
> > > > > perception-based
> > > > > > statements unless one has done an
> > academic study
> > > > on this issue, to find
> > > > > out
> > > > > > the effect of what such statements do,
> > or how
> > > > many among the Muslims
> > > > > across
> > > > > > different nations, not only in India,
> > but also in
> > > > Europe and others, are
> > > > > > actually involved in terrorist
> > activities, or at
> > > > the least, supporting
> > > > > the
> > > > > > ideology of terrorism or even the
> > Al-Qaeda. I
> > > > don't know myself about any
> > > > > > such study having been conducted in
> > India or any
> > > > other nation for that
> > > > > > matter; if any of you has anything or
> > any study
> > > > to prove so, please do
> > > > > put
> > > > > > it forward.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is also shameful that Muslims across
> > India or
> > > > other regions have to
> > > > > prove
> > > > > > their loyalty because of these
> > shameful
> > > > perceptions. It's on this
> > > > > perception
> > > > > > factor that we have a Raj Thackeray who
> > is
> > > > stating that UP and Bihar
> > > > > people
> > > > > > are actually taking over the jobs of
> > the
> > > > Marathis. The ironic thing is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > in a newspaper article I have read, the
> > total no.
> > > > of migrants to Mumbai
> > > > > is
> > > > > > actually around 45%, out of which 37.3%
> > (the
> > > > largest) are from within
> > > > > > Maharashtra, followed by Uttar Pradesh
> > (which
> > > > when added to Maharashtra
> > > > > > migrants come over to close to 60%) and
> > then
> > > > Gujarat. Where does even
> > > > > Bihar
> > > > > > come into the picture? And all these
> > statistics
> > > > are based on a UNDP-BMC
> > > > > > survey report which has been done
> > recently. And
> > > > the report also says that
> > > > > > the situation has been the same with
> > little
> > > > difference in composition of
> > > > > > migrants since the 1960's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When did Muslims claim that they are
> > loyal to
> > > > Ayatollah Khamenei, Osama
> > > > > Bin
> > > > > > Laden, Hafiz Mohammed Sayeed, Syed
> > Salahuddin,
> > > > Tehrik-i-Taliban, or even
> > > > > the
> > > > > > local Mullah on the street for that
> > matter? And
> > > > how many Muslims even
> > > > > made
> > > > > > that claim? I know definitely of one
> > Muslim
> > > > family which always supported
> > > > > > Pakistan in matches against India, but
> > for that
> > > > one family, I know of at
> > > > > > least 5 Muslim friends of mine who had
> > abuses to
> > > > shower at Pakistan when
> > > > > > India won the Twenty-20 World Cup in
> > 2007.
> > > > Infact, some of them even
> > > > > claim
> > > > > > we should nuke Pakistan. Are they loyal
> > to
> > > > Pakistan? (although I do agree
> > > > > > nuking is not what we should do)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When the Hindutva ideologues, be it
> > RSS, VHP or
> > > > anybody including the
> > > > > Hindu
> > > > > > Munnani say something, I don't consider
> > it as the
> > > > views of the Hindus.
> > > > > Who
> > > > > > are they to represent the Hindus? Do
> > they even
> > > > know what being a Hindu
> > > > > is,
> > > > > > or what Hinduism is? The same argument
> > even
> > > > extends to those who think
> > > > > they
> > > > > > speak on behalf of the Muslims. Do they
> > know what
> > > > Islam is? Have they
> > > > > even
> > > > > > studied the Koran properly, and do
> > understand in
> > > > what context what has
> > > > > been
> > > > > > said? Every person has the right to
> > speak for
> > > > himself/herself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hence stop questioning the Muslims. Or
> > even
> > > > Hindus. Or Marathis. Or
> > > > > others.
> > > > > > If you want to question someone for
> > his/her
> > > > beliefs, don't ask questions
> > > > > to
> > > > > > anyone else but that person alone.
> > Neither assume
> > > > that somebody has got
> > > > > the
> > > > > > right to speak on behalf of others. One
> > Deoband
> > > > conference doesn't have
> > > > > the
> > > > > > right to speak for Muslims across
> > India, forget
> > > > across even entire
> > > > > > South-Asian region.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as the content of the previous
> > mail is
> > > > concerned, I think there
> > > > > are
> > > > > > positives to be taken, many of them. We
> > should
> > > > respect those. At the same
> > > > > > time, the representative has a right to
> > request
> > > > Muslims not to join the
> > > > > > forces, and his perspective is skewed,
> > fine. That
> > > > doesn't mean Muslims
> > > > > will,
> > > > > > by default, accept it. Muslims don't
> > have to.
> > > > It's their right to accept
> > > > > or
> > > > > > not accept, this skewed perspective.
> > What we have
> > > > a right to do, is to
> > > > > > explain to them why this perspective is
> > skewed or
> > > > not, depending on our
> > > > > > value system and judgement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't just assume please, that Muslims
> > are
> > > > traitors or not traitors. Each
> > > > > > individual is different, please go
> > ahead and
> > > > respect their individuality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rakesh
> > > > > >
> > _________________________________________
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