[Reader-list] Bird-not-free in Kashmiri folk song

Sat Oct 10 16:56:11 IST 2009

Dear Inder

1. You can speak for yourself as not having seen a 'tota' in Kashmir. Please do not speak for me. 

2. Your dismissive contempt for factual "research based projects" is interesting. Obviously you are uncomfortable with facts. You are imputing that Dr Bakshi Jehangir (bird-watcher) and Imran Dar & Mithas Dar (reserchers) are liars.

3. Since the given links (photographs of the 'totas'-parakeets) are not your understanding of what is a 'tota' in Kashmir, you should give some idea (through pics) of what is a 'tota' in your view.

4. Your comment that Al Qaeda sees "tota' as an Islamic Bird is ridiculous. 

5. "Sodur" in Kashmir is 'Lake'. I tried to guide you towards this by informing you about the various landmarks named after "Sodur" around the Lakes. 

6. I told you about a place named  Sodur-Khon (apart from Sodur(a); Sodur-Bal; Sodur-Kot.). It is a point recognised at the inlet to Dal Lake where the Dal is supposed to be the deepest. 

7. Your question as to why Lal Ded used "sodras" (variant of 'sodur') instead of saying Wular or Dal is  like asking why (in English) a poet would use 'sea' or 'ocean' or 'lake' instead of using the name for a 'sea' or 'ocean' or 'lake'. Bizzare question.

8. You take too many liberties with Lal Ded by saying that "her well known verse ( vaakh ) on hindu muslim unity is well known jem". That is trivialising Lal Ded and distorting the 'Vaakh' in case you are referrring to 'shiv chui thali thali rozan, mozan hyond tai mussalman, trukh hai chukh paan parznav, soi chai sahibas saety zani zaan'

Lal Ded through recurrant references in her poetry is seen as having surrendered herself to the concept of 'shiv'. In this vaakh too she talks abou 'shiv' being resident in you which transcends any concept of 'hyond' and 'mussalman'. 

She goes on to call for recognising the 'trukh' in yourself. "Trukh" is from the philosophical treatise of "Trikha" which is also known variously known as "Kashmir Shaivism" which in turn had it's roots in the "Bhairav Tantra".

Some scholars read "trukh" as "wise". Some replace "hyond" by "bhatta". Some use "shivas" instead of "sahibas".

Since I have some interest in Lal Ded, I would be obliged if you could elaborate upon how this 'vaakh' talks about Hindu-Muslim Unity or any other references in her poetry that seek (what you call) "reconcillation between these two drifting identities ".

Scholars who question this 'vaakh' as being an authentic one from Lal Ded is because of the use of the word "hyond" (variant of Hindu). Everywhere else the word used by Lal Ded is "bhatta". Even in our lifetimes the word "hyond" or even "hindu" is not common currency when referring to local Kashmiri Pandits (Bhattas).

I see it differently though and I have no way of questioning the authencity of the 'vaakh' as being a Lal Ded one.

I see Lal Ded rejecting whatever the terms "hyond" (hindu) and "mussalmaan" represented and instead rooting for surrender to "shiv" and urging the following of the path of the 'trukh' (Trikha). As is obvious, I do not see the Kashmiri Pandit (the Bhatta) as being automatically a "Hindu".

Again, as I wrote earlier, some scholars translate "trukh" as "wise". So the jury is out on this. What is clear however, is the advice on recognising (surrender to) "shiv" in you and transcending any recognitions such as "hyond" and "mussalman" 

9. Your digression is a repetition of your refusal to focus on realities and propagate your own fanciful thinking on Kashmir. 

If there was no "Islamic Agenda" in Kashmir, where did the coalition Muslim United Front, the MUF of 1987 elections (not 1989) crop up from. Don't miss the word "Muslim". Was there a "Hindu" agenda driven politics or governance in Kashmir  that compelled the formation of a "Muslim" alliance?

You have yourself (and Sanjay Kak in an earlier mail) spoken about role played by 'India' in the last 2 decades, which is quite close to the formation of the Islam driven Muslim United Front (MUF) of 1987. 

Whether in the MUF of 1987 or the subsequent "Azaadi" movement, the essential drive comes from the "Islamic Identity"

I hope this will be my last conversation piece with you in this thread.

Kshmendra

--- On Tue, 10/6/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Bird-not-free in Kashmiri folk song
To: "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 6:03 PM

Dear Kshmendra ji

The links to support the evidence of Parrot ( the green bird ) in
Kashmir obviously confirms that you have not seen a parrot personally.
Let us be honest and say that we both have not seen a Tota in kashmir,
Be sure, all kashmiris will follow to what i am saying, except these
few research based projects to see a tota in kashmir. Different shaded
birds, some light greens even,  are still flying in kashmiri forests,
and thanks for the link. Hope the forests live for ever and the birds
too. This summer bird parrot is always welcome in kashmir, but...

Besides that, metaphorically the absence of this green bird is not a
good news for organizations like Al Qaeda who see tota as Islamic
bird.

about sound ' sodras '. I am not etymologist, which i feel becomes a
slippery  game after some time. but for large bodies of water, we have
Dal, or Wular, so not sure why Sodur is used, and why it means sea.
Lal Ded obviously is one of the greatest inspiration behind all the
meaningful poety in the valley. and her well known verse ( vaakh ) on
hindu muslim unity is well known jem. She obviously thought of
reconcillation between these two drifting identities was urgently
addressed by saints even, which is also need of the time, and that is
why i see ' present'  in the folk. That is not bereft of well known
conflict: kashmir conflict.

let me  digress a little :
I am not saying that Kasshmir was a heaven before 1947, or before
Maharaja or was a firdos during Yousuf shah check's rule, but
something terrible happened in 1947 which politician at the helm could
not grasp. Sheikh was a real hero of the hour, but he was ditched by
Nehru and later by Indira, who also changed into a mere adminstrator,
a corrupt on,  in his later years. Many things happened in between,
but let us see a cmmon denominator between Sri Lanka's treatment of
Tamils  ( now defeated LTTE ), and West Pakistan's treatment of East
Pakistan ( now bangladesh ), and India's treatment of MUF in 1989
assembly elections which directly resulted in violence with active
support of unemployed American mujahadeens in pakistan and local
humiliated  groups.

There never was islamic agenda in Kashmir.  Kashmiri pandits  were
loyal to Maharaja but Sheikh prevented KPs in 1947, wjhich goes to his
credit, and what is extra ordinary about Sheikh that he never gave
imporatnce  to Jinnah, so Kashmir deserved a free state in 1947 which
India could have supported, but alas.

So, when violence is loathed by one and all, for real reasons, which
is not serving even the radicals in kashmir,  how will the very angry
and humiliated Kashmiris vent their anger,  India has done very badly
during these last two decades. Sad that security forces were tempted
to do what they did and are still doing. What militans did is shameful
too, but, how to balance violence with violence. So, Kashmiris, will
discover a culture, of thier own, which will include a renewed
understanding of their folk, even if it means distortion, who cares,
may be that too is aesthetics, a new one

But, what it means, in the end, is question i cant answer even.

with love and regrds
inder salim

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Inder
>
> 1.
> Yes obviously you have not seen the 'tota' in Kashmir. I am only guessing that they are more likely to be found in forests (and wetlands as I discvovered) rather than gardens.
>
> I did mention the name of Dr Bakshi Jehangir (earlier incorrectly named by me as Bashir). He records his personal observation and positive identification of the three types (mentioned by me) at http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/birds/list.html.
>
> I am sure you will relish that website http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/.
>
> As I wrote earlier Jehangir specifically (in his Trip-6) mentions the sightings in Shivpora which is bordered on one side by woodlands. http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/blog/trip6.html
>
> Imran Dar and Mithas Dar record sightings (Jul to Nov '07) of the Slaty Headed Parakeet in the Shallabug Wetlands (of the Wular Lake) http://www.nepjol.info/index.php/JOWE/article/view/1853/1973
>
> 2.
> I see the point you are making with quoting Lal Ded's use of the word "sodras". Yes it has been translated as 'sea' by almost everyone. The "sea" might be needed to be imagined but not the "tota".
>
> My comment to you was on two contentions of yours. One that "tota' is not found in Kashmir and secondly the role you allocated to the "tota". The first one is factually incorrect. The second one, I argued was an incorrect understanding of  positioning of the 'tota'.
>
> Of course with imaginative interpretations (or imagined ones) you can see in anything you choose that it is "layered to match the present conflict in kashmir". Imagination is not licensed.
>
> I am not presuming to question the translating of "sodras" (from "sodur") into "sea" but it is interesting that places in Kashmir (in the environs of the lakes Dal; Manasbal; Wular carry such names as Sodur(a); Sodur-Bal; Sodur-Khon; Sodur-Kot.
>
> It does make me wonder whether the translators (very illustrious names) were hasty in translating "sodras" simply into "sea" (very attractive imagery for mystical meanings) instead of recognising in the "sodras" (the vast bodies of water) the lakes.
>
> "Sodur" also finds itself mentioned iin the Kashmiri Proverb "na'nis vurun chu, sodur purun" (covering or clothes for the naked is like trying to fill the ocean -or is it the lake?)
>
> 3.
> One Roop Kishen Magazine says about his surname that they are basically Dattatreya Kaul  and that his "great grandfather Pandit Raj Kaul of ZAINDAR MOHALLA, Habakadal; Srinagar was in Maharaja of Kashmir's services, and in charge of Army Magazine stores." From there came the surname Magazine. It is written by some (in keeping with the Kashmiri pronunciation) as Magzine.
>
> 4.
> Political commentary is found inherent in some (what could be comparatively recent) folk traditions of Kashmir such as Ladi Shah and Baand Paether. Perhaps those escaped your attention.
>
> I would dare to venture that Lal Ded has in her poetry has commented on the Politics of Religious bigotry.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> --- On Tue, 10/6/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Bird-not-free in Kashmiri folk song
> To: "Ananya Jahanara Kabir" <A.J.Kabir at leeds.ac.uk>
> Cc: "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 1:33 AM
>
> Thanks dear
> Kshmendra
> and dear
> Anananya
>
> i really enjoyed these two relfections. I only wish more such...
>
> Kshmendra ji, i have truely not seen a parrot in kashmir, may be it
> existed in the past but i have not seen, neither in mughal gardens nor
> in apple orchids.
>
>  i dont know what means 'Sadars'  (sea' ) in Lal Ded Vaakh when there
> is no sea in kashmir. Anyway, that is that, we have tons of sounds  in
> kashmir which have nothing to do with things actually existing in
> kashmir. my kashmiri friend in kashmir is Upinder Magazine, No clue
> how this is surname in Kashmir.
>
>  i like your added intrepretations that Tota can spread news of the
> miseries of the afflicted one far and wide.   As human beings this
> "idea of distribution of sensibilties"  is eternally weighty....
>
> i quote Jean Luc Nancy, "The earth is anything but sharing of
> humanity. It is a world that does not even manage to constitute a
> world. It is a world lacking in world. And lacking in the meaning of
> the world.".
>
> Our Kahmiri  poetry is full of such expressions, and i feel attached
> to my language by such profoundities embedded in the verses.  That is
> why a mere romantic verse  can have deeper human value in it, which is
> limited for young lovers, but for deepr thoughts a Rasool Mir is truly
> a |John Keats of Kashmi. It was that which made  me jump to talk about
> Bird -not- free in Kashmiri Folk. And if it is layered to match the
> present conflict in kashmir, what can i do..   Kashmir issue has a
> possibiltiy to engage its folk to express  the present pain, which is
> political in nature at the same time.
> Here, what i find interesting is the fact that the moment  we discover
> our presents in our folk songs we are unwittingly caught in a web of
> responbilities, which does not suit the hard core poliitical players,
> even.
>
> A true lover of Azadi in Kashmir in future shall sing Lal Ded and Azad
> and folk as well. That is the challange, but for most of our
> stucutres, we most easily seperate politics and folk ( culture and
> performance )  in different compartments, which is not working for me.
> It has something to do with our inner conflicts as well, and that is
> why we see ETHICS and other such meanings in life trampled in poltical
> uprisings. Kashmir is not expection, but i hope there is a responsible
> future for those who dissent...
>
> As i tried to point out the inherent opacity and complexities in the
> language tools we use for communicaiton, it was imperative to bring in
> the haer , a bird of different species, as the only one to help us
> convey: pain, to a bird of another specie: a parrot, tota: who is
> migratory, or migrated since...
>
> with love
> inder salim
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Ananya Jahanara Kabir
> <A.J.Kabir at leeds.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > The further questions to be asked, then, are:
> > a) are parrots and parakeets the same bird?
> > b) is the 'rose-necked parakeet' or the 'slaty headed parakeet' the same as a 'tota'? Why do we need to return to a colonial commentator for support? (Lawrence)
> > c) if a bird is a 'summer migrant', can it also be seen as indigenous?
> > d) is to be called a 'shoga' or a 'tota' automatically a designation of the 'tota' (or shoga's) indigeneity?
> > e) what is the ultimate provenance of the Tuti nama and who is the authority that 'credits' its descent from the work by Chintamani Bhatt? I'm especially taken by the grammatical construction of the sentence, 'The latter one (in Persian) is said to be based on the Sanskrit "Suka Saptati" (Seventy stories of a Parrot) credited to a Kashmiri Pandit, Chintamani Bhatt.'
> > In short, for me Kshemendra's response to Inder's circulated piece is interesting for these questions of claim and counter-claim that are generated whenever 'Kashmir' is the topic. Even a parrot cannot escape!
> > Apologies to Kshemendra for thus deconstructing your response, I just could not help it.
> > best wishes,
> > Ananya
> >
> > Dr Ananya Jahanara Kabir
> > Senior Lecturer in Postcolonial Literature
> > AHRC Knowledge Transfer Fellow
> > School of English, University of Leeds
> > Leeds LS2 9JT, UK
> > www.upress.umn.edu/Books/K/kabir_territory.html
> > http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/pages/staffindex.php?file=kabi
> > http://www.leeds.ac.uk/brasian/
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: 05 October 2009 15:15
> > To: reader-list; Inder Salim
> > Cc: Ananya Jahanara Kabir; bazaz002 at umn.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Bird-not-free in Kashmiri folk song
> >
> > Dear Inder
> >
> > Your interpretation of "haeriye thavakh na kann te lo lo" is misplaced. The 'tota' is not the tormentor. The 'tota' is hoped to be the carrier for the 'zaar' (travails) to be conveyed to it by the 'haer'. The reason perhaps is that (unlike the 'haer') the 'tota' is migratory and so can spread news of the miseries of the afflicted one far and wide.
> >
> > The 'tota' (Parrot) is very much found in Kashmir. Maybe you have not seen it so it does not exist for you.
> >
> > - WR Lawrence (1857-1940) lists amongst the Birds of Kashmir the Slaty Headed Parakeet (Psittacula himalayana)
> >
> > - Also found in Kashmir are the Rose Ringed Parakeet - local name 'shoga' (Psittacula krameri) and the Alexanderine Parakeet (Psittacula eupatria)
> >
> > - Dr Bashir Jehangir reports spotting all 3 types in Shivpora. All three probably are Summer Migrants
> >
> > - Raga Kirvani (voice of of the parrot) as per some traditions is said to have it's roots in Kashmir
> >
> > - You would know that both "shoga" and 'tota' are family surnames in Kashmir. I can only presume that they got attached due to markedly beaked noses.
> >
> > - From the 'Kashmir miniature School' two famous names as Artists (Illuminators)/ Calligraphers carry the surname 'tota'. They were the father and son duo of Pandit Daya Ram Koul Tota and Pandit Raja Ram Koul Tota. The latter one is especially mentioned for his works "Zafar-Nama Guru Gobind Singh"; "Gulgashat e Punjab"; "Zafar-Nama Ranjit Singh"; "Gulab Nama"; "Gulzar e Kashmir"
> >
> > - There is a rich tradition of Tales about Parrots and told by Parrots in the folk-lore from Kashmir, whether it is from "Hatim's Tales" or the "Tuti Nama" of Ziya al-Din Nakshabi (Parrot Tales also known as Tota Kahani). The latter one (in Persian) is said to be based on the Sanskrit "Suka Saptati" (Seventy stories of a Parrot) credited to a Kashmiri Pandit, Chintamani Bhatt.
> >
> > Kshmendra
> >
> > --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [Reader-list] Bird-not-free in Kashmiri folk song
> > To: "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Cc: "University of Leeds, UK" <A.J.Kabir at leeds.ac.uk>, bazaz002 at umn.edu
> > Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 9:06 PM
> >
> > Dear All
> > Freedom means different for different people.
> > For a bird,  it means differently if held in hands.
> > The metaphor in a Kashmiri folk song: ‘bird-not-free’ effectively
> > sensitizes the soul.
> > the song is:
> >
> > Athe travtohan janavar
> > Athe travtohan janavar
> > Phare bagas te kari guftar
> > Athe travtohan janavar
> > Chavi yavun te vure shehjar
> > Athe travtohan janavar
> > Ye chu nagman hund tandar
> > Athe travtohan janavar
> > Janavar chu vanan zaar
> > Athe travtohan janavar
> > Mate haitav ami sund baar
> > Athe travtohan janavar
> >
> > ( below: a word to word translation )
> >
> > Release the bird from your hands
> > Release the bird from your hands,
> > It wants to fly around the garden and speak out his heart.
> > Release the bird from your hands
> > It wants to celebrate youth under shadowy trees.
> > Release the bird from your hands
> > It is a conglomeration of songs,
> > Release the bird from your hands.
> > This bird is singing a sad number,
> > Release the bird from your hands.
> > Dont take the responsibility of his captivity,
> > Release the bird from your hands.
> > ………………………….
> > In a line from another folk song,  it is again about a bird, perhaps,
> > who yearns her misery to be conveyed to another bird: ‘tota’:
> > Parrot. But the messenger happens to be a Mynah ( the dark brown small
> > yellow beaked domestic bird ‘haer’ in Kashmiri ).
> >
> > Hariya thavak na kaan te lo lo
> > Zaar mein totas van te lo lo
> >
> > What I found interesting about this folk song is that we don’t have a
> > Parrot in Kashmir, who is either in Pakistan or in India.
> >
> > This ancient folk song from Kashmir has all the ingredients of the
> > complexities of
> > Language tools we use for communication. The gender of protagonist,
> > poet, or a bird is not defined.
> > The friend bird, ‘haer’ is the only one to convey what is most burning
> > inside the heart,
> > but will the parrot understand the syllables uttered by the bird,
> > if ever it manages to meet Him: the green red beaked brainy bird.
> >
> > With love and regards
> > Inder salim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
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>
>
> --
>
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