[Reader-list] 665 million in India defecate in open: UN

[Karthik Natarajan]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 11:37 PM, Rajkamal Goswami <
rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Karthik,
> You are every where!(i honestly dont know what that means) You have
> written a rambling version of my point#7! And you could have said the same
> thing in 3-4 sentences,
> my 'ramblings' are aimed at you making a non-issue an issue, the issue is
> that 660 million don not have access to what we would consider a set
> standard of hygiene, i know you would cringe at the word standard, as to who
> sets these standards and why have them, but then again, if you think that
> defecating in the open is not contributing to this issue, then i think we
> need to start over from the very beginning.
>


> Get informed on a few REALITIES karthik. (tried my best to understand the
> logic here... here is what i got.)
>
> 1. Defecating in the open DOESNOT mean defecating on the streets!
> defacing in the open is understandably not in the streets only, but unless
> u are talking about people, like dogs, covering them up once they do the
> due, i think we can consider the consequences to be the same! i am sure that
> flies and germs dont discriminate.
>


> 2. Whatever western agencies say are not sacred. What is the veracity of
> such a number? What method do they use?
> i am sure we have trust issues with figures that the west generate, but
> unless the figure is completely false, i am going to presume that it is
> true. is the issue with the number or with the fact that someone actually
> looked into this matter? and while we are discussing the credibility of this
> number, i wonder if there exists any literature on the number of made up
> figures that the UN or any international agency for that matter releases
> each year.
>


> 3. We CAN"T do anything about it! WE can't bring changes at those scales.
> if we dont believe we cant offer better hygiene to our own citizens, why
> are we even a country? we cant do anything about those who live in poor
> hygiene and die because of it?
>


> 4. Poverty is an IMPORTANT part of human society. The day when we can erase
> all INEQUITIES, human society will cease to EXIST!
> no one is talking of eradicating poverty. i am only talking of
> acknowledging its presence and acting to reduce it. and i am hoping human
> society will continue to exist beyond economic misery, i still have faith
> that we are better than the money we make. and please do explain how poverty
> is IMPORTANT? its present yes, its evident yes again, but i think this is
> the first time i have heard poverty being important.
>


> 5. Some cultures & societies as free to defecate in the open as much as you
> have the freedom to defecate inside a closed claustrophobic latrine. We are
> no one to PREACH them what they should do and what they shouldn't
> just because we are in a position to do so.
>
> no one wants to preach, we only want people to live better lives, i wonder
if your attitude towards education is also similar, in that you would rather
we dont learn because teaching could be taken as preaching and a better way
of living is no good
if good hygiene means the confines(seriously?) of a toilet for those 5
minutes, then please consider it as a favor to us lesser mortals who have
given in to the western habits and know no better. if  i may apply the same
logic to other fields of practice too, i wonder why we shun cannibalism, or
discrimination against groups or any such thing that you would consider
under change of a social practice.

 i might be repeating myself here, but i dont think the point really came
across clearly, lets please focus on how we can get better health standards
to those who dont have it. we have real issues to focus on.

and i think further talks can be on a more one on one basis, too many people
would recieve further exchanges if any and we can try minimizing discomfort
to those unwilling.

> Thanks
> best,
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Karthik Natarajan <
> karthik.natarajan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Rajkamal,
>> at the cost of sounding insensitive, and politically incorrect i disagree
>> with you.
>>
>> i read through the article a dozen times, and i dont really see where they
>> point out the poor indians as the cause for the poor standards of hygiene?
>>  nor do i see anyone blaming them for the decline of hygiene here. tho' it
>> is a fact that those below the poverty line have a difficulty with hygiene,
>> i mean at some point every indian has taken a dump or a lean on the road
>> somewhere, there is no denying that fact, but then there is also no denying
>> that the so called privileged urban dwelling middle class and above have the
>> option of going indoors in public buildings (malls/shops/restaurants) to let
>> go, vs the poor wouldnt have it that way.
>>
>> i dont know of any culture/social construct where a taking a shit is a
>> cultural necessity.
>>
>> at the cost of being politically correct or at-least sensitive we rant
>> about marginalization of the poor, but the issue remains, 665 million of us
>> are going to defecate on the street, most are doing it now, most of those
>> would belong to the poor sections primarily because healthcare and
>> sanitation is a tall claim in quiet a few places in india. its not blaming
>> the poor for low health standards, i think the article is only pointing out
>> that the problem exists.
>>
>> and we have poor health standards because we have poor health standards,
>> the defecating in the open is a definite cause.
>>
>> i wish we were more sensitive to the actual issue at hand of how we need
>> to improve living conditions, and not focus on economic insensitivity.
>> political correctness never worked for progress.
>>
>> the only offense here is that i am sure we have access to these figures,
>> and i am sure we know what needs to be done, and yet, we have trains that
>> still let go of their waste on tracks, and we dont have enough public
>> toilets to use. and we are offended that someone pointed out that we have a
>> problem, not that we are not doing anything to solve it.
>>
>> i apologize if i did sound rude anywhere in the reply, but i feel really
>> strongly about this issue and also feel strongly about the fact that we
>> arent doing enough about it.
>>
>>  On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Rajkamal Goswami <
>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  >  Dear Kashmendra,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for the valuable insights and the cases. What appalls me is the
>>> > complete lack of empathy for the marginalized sections of the society &
>>> > targeting them for all the problems of the socio-environment sphere.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Classic example is the cry-out of the western world ( and doles of
>>> World
>>> > Bank soft loans) to replace wood-based fuel with LPG in the poorer
>>> sections.
>>> > The justification being that less dependence on wood-more trees-more
>>> natural
>>> > carbon sequestration & less global warming-arresting climate change.
>>> And
>>> > what is more appalling & also frustrating is the extraordinary
>>> eagerness
>>> > shown by our executive to grab this dole-outs! I have personally seen
>>> how
>>> > LPG distribution to far-flung tribal settlements in Mizoram state was
>>> > carried out with lot of pomp & show by the NTCA (erstwhile Project
>>> Tiger).
>>> > 3 months down the line & all that was left was empty cylinders & dusty
>>> > gas-stoves! Reason? Because there were only mud roads connecting these
>>> > forest settlements to the nearest small town ( 30kms away) with no
>>> regular
>>> > transport. Hence the cylinders never got refilled & the villagers went
>>> back
>>> > to the fuel wood which was right there, in their backyard!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > In the20 year old debate about climate change & reduction of GHGs,
>>> there
>>> > has been absolutely no talk about a section of our country who has, on
>>> an
>>> > average, more than one car at disposal. During peak hours it is common
>>> to
>>> > see sedans & suvs just having a driver! How many initiatives has been
>>> taken
>>> > by the executive to address these issues? How much thought has gone to
>>> > streamline & improve the PTS on a countrywide scale? I hail from a very
>>> > small town called Tezpur, which is about 200 kms east of Guwahati, on
>>> the
>>> > north bank of Brahmaputra. I have seen the sleepy town with a few
>>> cycles,
>>> > cycle-rickshaws & a handful of mobikes & cars (we knew how many of them
>>> were
>>> > there), transform to a mini traffic chaos! Almost every second guy has
>>> a
>>> > mobike & every sixth one a car! And during peak hours you can see
>>> one-way
>>> > no-entry signs which is no-entry only for the cycle-rickshaws! While
>>> the
>>> > smoky cars & the bikes trudges along!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Just a couple of first hand-cases to exemplify the blame that is being
>>> > passed (almost always) on the socio-economically poor &  marginalized.
>>>  And
>>> > that’s how and where the state fails!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > thanks
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > *Rajkamal Goswami,*
>>> >
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> > *From:* Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com]
>>> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:34 PM
>>> > *To:* sarai list; rajkamal; Rajkamal Goswami
>>> > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] 665 million in India defecate in open: UN
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Dear Rajkamal
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Very interesting perspectives.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > A few thoughts, not meant to criticise:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Traditionally, in Agriculture, in many parts of the world (if not all),
>>> > human excreta, after composting has been used as a manure. Certainly in
>>> > India and China. The word "Humanure" has been coined for it.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The native wisdom in how to process the "Humanure" has given way in
>>> some
>>> > places to "Thermphilic composting" and commercial selling of the
>>> "Humanure".
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I think the problem comes up in such situations where the recycling of
>>> > human excreta cannot be done in a manner to make it an integral part of
>>> the
>>> > living environment.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > We have in India the additional 'social' dimension where human excreta
>>> > collecting "sweepers" are not afforded the dignity of their labour and
>>> are
>>> > instead treated as untouchables.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You might have heard of the 'strangulation by weeds' of the Lakes in
>>> > Kashmir. This change in what were pristine water bodies for many a
>>> centuries
>>> > has been attributed (amongst other factors) to the dumping of human
>>> excreta
>>> > into them from the "Houseboats" and what is flushed into them from the
>>> > residences along the shores.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > "Dry Toilets" (Self-Composting Toilets) have been proposed to tackle
>>> this.
>>> > These are already used in many places such as Construction-Work Sites,
>>> Camp
>>> > Sites. (any questions about affordabilty would be very valid)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > There is no doubt in this that when the human excreta is not
>>> > treated/re-cycled/composted, it becomes a breeding site for disease
>>> > with various available means of transmission. This is exactly what
>>> happens
>>> > in Non-Agricultural, Non-Farming environments of Towns and Cities
>>> (urban
>>> > areas).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > An essential part of any competent Urban Planning is inclusion of
>>> Sewage
>>> > Treatment Plants that recycle the water for use in Municipal and
>>> Residential
>>> > Landscaping (Household and not Industrial Sewage) and compost the
>>> filtered
>>> > waste into Manure.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Just a few thoughts.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Kshmendra
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --- On *Thu, 10/15/09, Rajkamal Goswami <rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com
>>> >*wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > From: Rajkamal Goswami <rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com>
>>> > Subject: [Reader-list] 665 million in India defecate in open: UN
>>> > To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>, "rajkamal" <
>>> rajkamal at atree.org>
>>> > Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 10:28 AM
>>> >
>>> > 665 million in India defecate in open: UN
>>> >
>>> >
>>> http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/oct/15/in-india-665-million-defecate-in-open-un.htm
>>> > <
>>> >
>>> http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/oct/15/in-india-665-million-defecate-in-open-un.htm
>>> > >I
>>> > strongly oppose this westernized view of sanitation & hygiene.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Defecating in the open is not just a hygienic issue but a
>>> socio-cultural,
>>> > historical, economic, political & environmental issue. The point of
>>> > contention being that health is jeopardized due to open-defecation is
>>> > highly
>>> > ridiculous. I argue that its failure of the state which is primarily
>>> > responsible for the poor health rather than the prevalent defecation
>>> > practices.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 1.        Many cultures & society across India has age-old tradition of
>>> > defecating in the open. Most parts where open defecation is practiced
>>> are
>>> > parts with water scarcity & low rainfall. There are many community
>>> > defecating practices which are of special significance to many,
>>> > particularly
>>> > women as a social-bonding exercise. For eg, in many parts of northern
>>> > India,
>>> > women go out in groups early at dawn to relieve themselves out in the
>>> open
>>> > and socialize with other woman from the village, who otherwise can’t
>>> > socialize because of restrictive customs like *purdah/ghoongat*.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2.      Nomadic man never defecated in closed toilets! Even the
>>> forefathers
>>> > of Hispanics & the Caucasians, who are the so-called ‘developed’ human
>>> race
>>> > today, did defecate in the open.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 3.       We assume that access to toilets is economically driven. In
>>> many
>>> > parts of Tamil Nadu, Bihar, UP & MP this assumption doesn’t hold true.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 4.      When the government & non-government run toilets charges
>>> something
>>> > ranging from 1-10 INR to use toilets, whom can we blame for open
>>> toilets? A
>>> > case example is Bangalore where the frequency of even paid toilets are
>>> very
>>> > low (1 per 5 kms) & moreover there locations are haphazard and ad-hoc.
>>> In
>>> > some locations we find 2-3 toilets whereas in a few places there are
>>> none.
>>> > And the hygienic conditions of these toilets are worse than open
>>> toilets,
>>> > to
>>> > say the least! So if you choose to use public toilets instead of open
>>> ones,
>>> > you might end up paying to get sick!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 5.      From environmental perspective, open toilets are way better
>>> then
>>> > the
>>> > plush toilets with toilet papers and other fancy stuff.  In India there
>>> are
>>> > numerous coprophagous animals like dogs, pigs that eat the fecal
>>> matter.
>>> > The
>>> > climatic conditions also ensure that the feces decompose fast. Fecal
>>> > matters
>>> > also support a large microbial & insect biodiversity. Climate change
>>> > experts
>>> > should swear by defecation in the open as the most carbon-unfriendly
>>> way
>>> > with zero carbon foot-print & zero GHG emission. Using water to clean
>>> is
>>> > the
>>> > second best option while using toilet paper is the most environmentally
>>> > harmful way as paper manufacturing industry is highly water-intensive &
>>> has
>>> > large carbon footprint.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 6.      The initial capital as well as environmental costs of building
>>> > toilets is high with large carbon-footprints. Sewers and septic tanks
>>> > accumulate wastes and dump them at point locations, which might not be
>>> able
>>> > to handle such high magnitudes of in-flow. Open toilets ensure that
>>> such
>>> > bulk flow doesn’t take place & before the eventual drainage a
>>> substantially
>>> > large amount is anyway decomposed.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 7.      The UN is highlighting the wrong issue. The main issue of a
>>> poor
>>> > health condition is not because we defecate in the open but because
>>> health
>>> > like other essential services viz. roadways, railways, water, education
>>> is
>>> > primarily a state responsibility and the state, even after 60+ years of
>>> > self
>>> > rule, has failed to ensure the distribution of these services across
>>> > social,
>>> > economic & geographic strata & sections.
>>> >
>>> > regards,
>>> >
>>> > RAJKAMAL,
>>> > --
>>> > Rajkamal Goswami
>>> > PhD Student in Conservation Science
>>> > Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE)
>>> > Royal Enclave, Sri Ramapura, Jakkur P.O.
>>> > Bangalore 560 064 Karnataka, India.
>>> > Phone: 080-23635555, extn: 207
>>> > Mobile: 09740362460
>>> > Fax: 91 80 2353 0070
>>> >
>>> > Web: www.atree.org
>>> > _________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> karthik  natarajan
>> 0091 99232 27049
>> [using webmail]
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rajkamal Goswami
> PhD Student in Conservation Science
> Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE)
> Royal Enclave, Sri Ramapura, Jakkur P.O.
> Bangalore 560 064 Karnataka, India.
> Phone: 080-23635555, extn: 207
> Mobile: 09740362460
> Fax: 91 80 2353 0070
>
> Web: www.atree.org
>



-- 
karthik  natarajan
0091 99232 27049
[using webmail]