[Reader-list] FIR and this list

Sun Dec 5 09:12:57 IST 2010

Very well argued by Shuddha. You only need to look at history to
appreciate what the logical conclusion of aggression towards evil can
bring - revolutions have consumed their own children in France, the
Soviet Union, China. Of course, this does not mean a totally
non-aggressive approach is always feasible. What is needed is a
carefully calibrated response.

On a related issue, if Shuddha and others need legal assistance, I
suggest each of us contribute a little bit to create a fund for this
at Sarai, if only to underline the fact that we too stand for the
values they have tried to defend. Apologies if this has been discussed
already - I have not been able to read earlier posts on this thread.

Tapas

On 5 December 2010 05:40, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
> Dear Pheeta,
> I enjoy all your postings, and often find them provocative and conducive to
> the difficult task of thinking a difficult thought.
> I am responding to your posting, for the moment, not in the spirit of the
> immediate discussion, in recognition of the nudge you have given it towards
> a more fundamental direction.
> While, I am not one of those who think that those who are partisans for
> truth, or for freedom, or for the cause of a better, more compassionate
> world, need not always be modicums of politeness, and sometimes, frank
> speaking may be necessary, and one need not always be NICE to evil, I do not
> at the same time, think it is necessary to strain oneself to be intolerant,
> violent, or to enact terror.
> I say this because I think intolerance, violence and terror distort their
> agents, they introduce elements into the equation which derail a struggle
> for justice, make it impossible for those who are not powerful to
> participate in the fight for what it is right. I am not saying that I rule
> out all acts of violence. I think violence in self defence, may in the rare
> instance be ethically possible to contemplate, but by and large, violence
> changes the equation such that the perpetrator of violence changes himself
> or herself in ways that we dont have a true estimation of. I am not at all
> certain we should risk such radical changes in the way we are made as
> humans, even in order to make things right again.
> The little ambiguity that I do see possible to entertain in a discussion of
> violence is drained away when it comes to intolerance and terror. I do not
> believe that you need intolerance to defend yourself against intolerance.
> And I do not believe that you need terror to defend yourself against terror.
> By its very definition, intolerance, the inability to tolerate something can
> never be a good defence of tolerance. It will constantly need things to be
> 'intolerant' towards, and will even invent objects to be intolerant towards,
> when there are none. The same operates in the case of terror. Terror is
> terror only when it is not directed against a specific objective, only when
> it is random, utterly aleatory, as when a bomb placed in a dustbin in a
> market place goes off, killing, anyone, anyone who happened to be there, at
> that time. Terror can never combat terror, it can only beget more terror.
> Intolerance can never beget intolerance, it can only beget intolerance.
> Violence, very rarely, can stop violence. There is a difference between
> never and very rarely. But not that much, and that is why, very rarely, is
> indeed is something that I hope needs to be resorted to, very rarely.
> I think part of the problem of our confusion about what to do in the face of
> active evil (and I personally think we have seen active evil on this list
> too) arisese out of a failure to distinguish between different kinds of
> power. I propose a distinction between force, which is power in its capacity
> to act on things, and potency, or in latin, potentia, as the energy that
> acts through things, makes them move and grow. Most of the time, when we see
> the operations of power that are evil, we are staring force in the face. We
> think force can only be repelled by force. That is not true. Force can be
> combatted by potency. Which neutralizes force, which bends force, absorbs
> force, which melts force, which makes force slide away on impact
> I think the thing to do is to think of the actions that can confront
> intolerance, violence and terror in such a way as to neutralize them, absorb
> them,  mbend them, melt them, make them slide away on impact. I am sure that
> terror and intolerance can never bend, absorb or melt or present a slippery
> surface to the 'force' of evil.
> Doing that does not require us to be BAD, as you put it, nor does it require
> us to be NICE. But I am certain that it requires us to be very, very,
> strong.
> Thanks for the opportunity to be doing this thinking,
> warm regards
> Shuddha
> On 04-Dec-10, at 10:19 PM, Pheeta Ram wrote:
>
> I often wonder as to why it is that people who are really right (and not on
> the side of the Right), are on the side of Truth, are on the side of what is
> ethical (with capital T), i mean people who stand for the oppressed, their
> struggles or themselves have decided not to tolerate the tyrant and get rid
> of their chains, are always on the defensive, as if being offensive, being
> rude, being aggressive, being violent to the goons on the Right is
> corrupting and sinful. Does being defensive, being a party who is always at
> the receiving end of violence catapult one to a higher moral pedestal? And
> if that is so, should one then infer that the Evil shall always be on the
> ascendant, always be the party charging at the people, always be the
> aggressor, always be the ruler, always be the one to wield Power?
> When shall the good people decide to be really BAD to people who are really
> really Bad, are Evil, are doing everything that is UN-ETHICAL?
> Should people who are in the process of breaking their chains be apologetic
> about it, act in bad faith, as if being good, being on the side of what is
> ethically right means never to be in the commanding position, never to be in
> charge of the Power, never be the aggressor, never be violent, never be a
> TERROR-ist, never send shivers of TERROR through the spine of the Evil?
> I think its high time WE reclaim all these categories, these 'virtues' we
> ascribe to the Evil (intolerance, aggression, violence, terror! ) and
> re-engineer the mainframe of Power, wrest it from the Evil, re-organise the
> terms of engagement, reset the variables, redefine the constants of this
> non-linear mathematics of Power to our advantage, the advantage of Good, the
> Ethical.
> There is no other way!
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 5:47 PM, anuradha mukherjee
> <anu.mukh at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Ana,
> leaving the list shold not be the answer to lumpens pretending to be
> intellects or even political activists. Most of them just aspire to be
> future A Rajas or Nira Radia and get a share in some scam pie, some tasty,
> rich pie. So it is a strategy with them to be obnoxios and scuttle
> discussions. Someone like Samvit does it by being obnoxiously misogynistic,
> others by calling names.
> I would not have a problem with anyone expressing their opinions, but when
> they cross the limit of respectful dissent, I think it is time for them to
> leave.Not you. Such kindergarten tactics like bullying may continue for
> many
> of these people, into the political sphere for some of them.It is just
> disappointing that people who have only begun to participate in political
> discourse are so unabashed about their ignorance, booing and thumbing their
> noses at others all the time. So if they speak, they are patriots, even
> when
> they talk violently. But if someone like A Roy speaks, she deserves an FIR.
> Anuradha
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Ana Valdés <agora158 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Tapas. Normally I am not a "quitter", dvs I stand for my
> opinions
> and try to elaborate my dissensions, the problem is when the tone of a
> conversation, virtual or in real life, goes sour, when people throw
> invectives and scourn instead for listening and exchanging.
> That's the things which make me lose my patience and my pleasure.
> Best
> Ana
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] <tapasrayx at gmail.com
>
> wrote:
>
> Ana,
> Please consider this: for every such person there are at least ten
> others who have only contempt for their actions. If you leave, this
> majority is reduced and the small minority gets a chance to become the
> majority one day.
> Best,
> Tapas
>
> On 30 November 2010 16:24, Ana Valdés <agora158 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry but I want now to unsubscribe from these list. If memberrs of
>
> this
>
> list has done that they have shown a flagrant disrespect tor the
>
> rights
>
> of a
>
> writer to speak freely and to to express its opinions.
> A person using the Sate recourses, police and judges to do that, has
>
> no
>
> right to belong to this list, but since I am not the moderator I
>
> choose
>
> ,myself to go and to leave you all with such despicable
>
> interlocutors.
>
> Ana
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Jeebesh <jeebesh at sarai.net> wrote:
>
> dear All,
>
>
>
>
> http://www.mid-day.com/news/2010/nov/301110-News-Delhi-FIR-Kashmiri-separatist-leader-Syed-Ali-Geelani-Arundhati-Roy-sedition.htm
>
> Members of this list are behind the private complaint that has
>
> pushed
>
> the
>
> courts to get an FIR lodged.
> There are member of this list who are named in the FIR.
> So, dear list members, the online and offline flows entangles each
>
> other.
>
> Lets think hard.
> warmly
> jeebesh
>
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> with
>
> your
>
> eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will
>
> always
>
> long
>
> to return.
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> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
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>  http://anavaldes.wordpress.com
> http://passagenwerk.wordpress.com
> http://caravia.stumbleupon.com
> http://www.crusading.se
> Gondolgatan 2 l tr
> 12832 Skarpnäck
> Sweden
> tel +468-943288
> mobil 4670-3213370
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with
> your
> eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always
>
> long
>
> to return.
> — Leonardo da Vinci
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> Raqs Media Collective
> shuddha at sarai.net
> www.sarai.net
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>