[Reader-list] FIR and this list

Sun Dec 5 18:29:58 IST 2010

Dear friends, it's really stimulating and intellectual challenging to follow
the discussion and rise the level to discuss our ground questions: evil and
goodness. Hanah Arendt wrote and spoke about "the banality of evil", the
everydays small signs of evilness dominating the life, Tanatos, should Freud
say, our dark nature using it's weapons to rule and conquest our souls.
Germany was not a nation suddenly turned evil, but it was the evilness of
some people turning the balance towards the evil.
You come from the very country which succeed to disrupt an empire and turn
down a colonial ruling using no violence and Mahatma Ghandi is the example
we all learned to use when appealing to no violence as powerful as violence.
I have been in Palestine ten, twelve times, and everyone is asking "why we
don't have a Ghandi in the Middle East?".
For myself, a firm partisan of the armed struggle when I was young (that's
the reason of my four years imprisonment in Uruguay), the process has been
long but clear, today I take distance from every intent to conquest the
power with weapons.
Ana

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:

> Dear Pheeta,
>
> I enjoy all your postings, and often find them provocative and conducive to
> the difficult task of thinking a difficult thought.
>
> I am responding to your posting, for the moment, not in the spirit of the
> immediate discussion, in recognition of the nudge you have given it towards
> a more fundamental direction.
>
> While, I am not one of those who think that those who are partisans for
> truth, or for freedom, or for the cause of a better, more compassionate
> world, need not always be modicums of politeness, and sometimes, frank
> speaking may be necessary, and one need not always be NICE to evil, I do not
> at the same time, think it is necessary to strain oneself to be intolerant,
> violent, or to enact terror.
>
> I say this because I think intolerance, violence and terror distort their
> agents, they introduce elements into the equation which derail a struggle
> for justice, make it impossible for those who are not powerful to
> participate in the fight for what it is right. I am not saying that I rule
> out all acts of violence. I think violence in self defence, may in the rare
> instance be ethically possible to contemplate, but by and large, violence
> changes the equation such that the perpetrator of violence changes himself
> or herself in ways that we dont have a true estimation of. I am not at all
> certain we should risk such radical changes in the way we are made as
> humans, even in order to make things right again.
>
> The little ambiguity that I do see possible to entertain in a discussion of
> violence is drained away when it comes to intolerance and terror. I do not
> believe that you need intolerance to defend yourself against intolerance.
> And I do not believe that you need terror to defend yourself against terror.
> By its very definition, intolerance, the inability to tolerate something can
> never be a good defence of tolerance. It will constantly need things to be
> 'intolerant' towards, and will even invent objects to be intolerant towards,
> when there are none. The same operates in the case of terror. Terror is
> terror only when it is not directed against a specific objective, only when
> it is random, utterly aleatory, as when a bomb placed in a dustbin in a
> market place goes off, killing, anyone, anyone who happened to be there, at
> that time. Terror can never combat terror, it can only beget more terror.
> Intolerance can never beget intolerance, it can only beget intolerance.
> Violence, very rarely, can stop violence. There is a difference between
> never and very rarely. But not that much, and that is why, very rarely, is
> indeed is something that I hope needs to be resorted to, very rarely.
>
> I think part of the problem of our confusion about what to do in the face
> of active evil (and I personally think we have seen active evil on this list
> too) arisese out of a failure to distinguish between different kinds of
> power. I propose a distinction between force, which is power in its capacity
> to act on things, and potency, or in latin, potentia, as the energy that
> acts through things, makes them move and grow. Most of the time, when we see
> the operations of power that are evil, we are staring force in the face. We
> think force can only be repelled by force. That is not true. Force can be
> combatted by potency. Which neutralizes force, which bends force, absorbs
> force, which melts force, which makes force slide away on impact
>
> I think the thing to do is to think of the actions that can confront
> intolerance, violence and terror in such a way as to neutralize them, absorb
> them,  mbend them, melt them, make them slide away on impact. I am sure that
> terror and intolerance can never bend, absorb or melt or present a slippery
> surface to the 'force' of evil.
>
> Doing that does not require us to be BAD, as you put it, nor does it
> require us to be NICE. But I am certain that it requires us to be very,
> very, strong.
>
> Thanks for the opportunity to be doing this thinking,
>
> warm regards
>
> Shuddha
>
>
> On 04-Dec-10, at 10:19 PM, Pheeta Ram wrote:
>
>  I often wonder as to why it is that people who are really right (and not
>> on
>> the side of the Right), are on the side of Truth, are on the side of what
>> is
>> ethical (with capital T), i mean people who stand for the oppressed, their
>> struggles or themselves have decided not to tolerate the tyrant and get
>> rid
>> of their chains, are always on the defensive, as if being offensive, being
>> rude, being aggressive, being violent to the goons on the Right is
>> corrupting and sinful. Does being defensive, being a party who is always
>> at
>> the receiving end of violence catapult one to a higher moral pedestal? And
>> if that is so, should one then infer that the Evil shall always be on the
>> ascendant, always be the party charging at the people, always be the
>> aggressor, always be the ruler, always be the one to wield Power?
>>
>> When shall the good people decide to be really BAD to people who are
>> really
>> really Bad, are Evil, are doing everything that is UN-ETHICAL?
>>
>> Should people who are in the process of breaking their chains be
>> apologetic
>> about it, act in bad faith, as if being good, being on the side of what is
>> ethically right means never to be in the commanding position, never to be
>> in
>> charge of the Power, never be the aggressor, never be violent, never be a
>> TERROR-ist, never send shivers of TERROR through the spine of the Evil?
>>
>> I think its high time WE reclaim all these categories, these 'virtues' we
>> ascribe to the Evil (intolerance, aggression, violence, terror! ) and
>> re-engineer the mainframe of Power, wrest it from the Evil, re-organise
>> the
>> terms of engagement, reset the variables, redefine the constants of this
>> non-linear mathematics of Power to our advantage, the advantage of Good,
>> the
>> Ethical.
>>
>> There is no other way!
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 5:47 PM, anuradha mukherjee <anu.mukh at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  Ana,
>>> leaving the list shold not be the answer to lumpens pretending to be
>>> intellects or even political activists. Most of them just aspire to be
>>> future A Rajas or Nira Radia and get a share in some scam pie, some
>>> tasty,
>>> rich pie. So it is a strategy with them to be obnoxios and scuttle
>>> discussions. Someone like Samvit does it by being obnoxiously
>>> misogynistic,
>>> others by calling names.
>>> I would not have a problem with anyone expressing their opinions, but
>>> when
>>> they cross the limit of respectful dissent, I think it is time for them
>>> to
>>> leave.Not you. Such kindergarten tactics like bullying may continue for
>>> many
>>> of these people, into the political sphere for some of them.It is just
>>> disappointing that people who have only begun to participate in political
>>> discourse are so unabashed about their ignorance, booing and thumbing
>>> their
>>> noses at others all the time. So if they speak, they are patriots, even
>>> when
>>> they talk violently. But if someone like A Roy speaks, she deserves an
>>> FIR.
>>> Anuradha
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Ana Valdés <agora158 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Thank you, Tapas. Normally I am not a "quitter", dvs I stand for my
>>>> opinions
>>>> and try to elaborate my dissensions, the problem is when the tone of a
>>>> conversation, virtual or in real life, goes sour, when people throw
>>>> invectives and scourn instead for listening and exchanging.
>>>> That's the things which make me lose my patience and my pleasure.
>>>> Best
>>>> Ana
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] <tapasrayx at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Ana,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please consider this: for every such person there are at least ten
>>>>> others who have only contempt for their actions. If you leave, this
>>>>> majority is reduced and the small minority gets a chance to become the
>>>>> majority one day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Tapas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30 November 2010 16:24, Ana Valdés <agora158 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry but I want now to unsubscribe from these list. If memberrs of
>>>>>>
>>>>> this
>>>>
>>>>> list has done that they have shown a flagrant disrespect tor the
>>>>>>
>>>>> rights
>>>
>>>> of a
>>>>>
>>>>>> writer to speak freely and to to express its opinions.
>>>>>> A person using the Sate recourses, police and judges to do that, has
>>>>>>
>>>>> no
>>>
>>>>  right to belong to this list, but since I am not the moderator I
>>>>>>
>>>>> choose
>>>
>>>>  ,myself to go and to leave you all with such despicable
>>>>>>
>>>>> interlocutors.
>>>
>>>>  Ana
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Jeebesh <jeebesh at sarai.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  dear All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.mid-day.com/news/2010/nov/301110-News-Delhi-FIR-Kashmiri-separatist-leader-Syed-Ali-Geelani-Arundhati-Roy-sedition.htm
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Members of this list are behind the private complaint that has
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> pushed
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> courts to get an FIR lodged.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are member of this list who are named in the FIR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, dear list members, the online and offline flows entangles each
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> other.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lets think hard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> warmly
>>>>>>> jeebesh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> http://anavaldes.wordpress.com
>>>>>> http://passagenwerk.wordpress.com
>>>>>> http://caravia.stumbleupon.com
>>>>>> http://www.crusading.se
>>>>>> Gondolgatan 2 l tr
>>>>>> 12832 Skarpnäck
>>>>>> Sweden
>>>>>> tel +468-943288
>>>>>> mobil 4670-3213370
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth
>>>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>
>>>> your
>>>>>
>>>>>> eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will
>>>>>>
>>>>> always
>>>
>>>> long
>>>>>
>>>>>> to return.
>>>>>> — Leonardo da Vinci
>>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>>>>
>>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>  http://anavaldes.wordpress.com
>>>> http://passagenwerk.wordpress.com
>>>> http://caravia.stumbleupon.com
>>>> http://www.crusading.se
>>>> Gondolgatan 2 l tr
>>>> 12832 Skarpnäck
>>>> Sweden
>>>> tel +468-943288
>>>> mobil 4670-3213370
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with
>>>> your
>>>> eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always
>>>>
>>> long
>>>
>>>> to return.
>>>> — Leonardo da Vinci
>>>> _________________________________________
>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>
>>>>  _________________________________________
>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>>>
>>>  _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> Raqs Media Collective
> shuddha at sarai.net
> www.sarai.net
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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>

-- 
http://anavaldes.wordpress.com
http://passagenwerk.wordpress.com
http://caravia.stumbleupon.com
http://www.crusading.se
Gondolgatan 2 l tr
12832 Skarpnäck
Sweden
tel +468-943288
mobil 4670-3213370

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your
eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always long
to return.
— Leonardo da Vinci