[Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development

Fri Jun 4 11:22:38 IST 2010

I thought the discussion was about the condition of Muslims in Gujarat
vis-a-vis Sachar committee report, and also about the relief camps. The
detractors have succeeded in hijacking the core issue yet again and discuss
what is irrelevant and unneccesary.

In most "successful" states as it is usually projected to its people,
democracy is only a mask especially if the state is proactively projecting
itself as a democratic nation. Whether an institution, in this case a state,
is democratic, could only be ascertained over a period of time. If i am
correctly putting it, the idea of a democracy is not a priori but it is
dependent on the experience of the subject. If it is on paper, that is not
good enough to say that the state is democratic. It has been observed that,
apart from addressing large rallies ( a sign of majoritarianism), inspecting
business models of large corporate houses and playing the 'cheif guest' (in
certain cases for marriages as well), if the head of the state is saying
she/he is ruling over a democratic institution, they are either lying to the
people or they live in some kind of make-believe. ICT enabled approaches has
even allowed some of the ministers in the state to address the subjects
through video conferencing. the excuse is usually a packed schedule or a
security threat!

Frankly, I would not know about Singapore, but yes! several states in India,
especially Gujarat in the recent times, Assam between 1990 to 2005, and
India in general during the emergency years how a select group of persons
subvert the rights of the people for their own political good. There exists
other examples from these states where democracy or a system resembling
certain democratic ethos were highlighted to project itself as what could be
called democratic. However, it is pretense.

But at the same time, the issue cannot be solved by highlighting only
certain examples. it is the existing examples where such pretenses exist
need to addressed, which can go a long way to solve such issues. One of the
best approaches could be a participatory approach through both non state and
state actors.

Anupam

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:

> Dear Britta,
>
> Majoritarianism is not democracy.
>
> Is this statement you prefer for Gujarat only? Since all the states, union
> government at Delhi all are ruling with majority in democracy! You are from
> German and there is lots of difference in German and Indian politics,
> ethics, discipline of public.
>
> Voters can easily come in the trap of political party offered by them as a
> lollipop for short gain which is ultimately harmful to the public. Indian
> public has to learn more on moral, ethics, discipline point of view. I hope
> with this statement you must be aware of Indian political history and if not
> make study then make yourself eligible for any such comment.
>
> Thanks
> Bipin
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]
> On Behalf Of ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 8:55 PM
> To: Kshmendra Kaul
> Cc: sarai list
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>
> First of all we obviously have a dissent on the question whether
> generalisations about the Indian public can be made or not, and given that
> you accuse me of idiotic arrogance in this regard this dissent in itself
> is very strong. So please tell me what exactly you find wrong with my
> doing so. Then we have a second dissent which concerns the very question
> of idiotic arrogance on my part, which I clearly dispute.
> Since you brought in Bipin now: 'well-working' in terms of organisation is
> not the same as 'well-working' in terms of democracy. The Third Reich
> worked extremely well in terms of annihilating the German and European
> Jews. Singapore works extremely well in terms of providing economic
> security while curtailing freedom of speech. Under these conditions it's
> obviously difficult to make out whether this finds the actual majority of
> the voters, but even if it does, it's not democratic. Gujarat, which
> cannot openly curtail democratic rights, works extremely well in
> concealing the plight of many Muslims by simply denying that they exist
> and by denying that the state systematically clamps down on those who
> disrupt the picture presented. By finding a majority of the voters for
> this strategy, it is indeed well-functioning but undermining democracy.
> Majoritarianism is not democracy.
>
>
> > Dear Britta
> >
> > Dissent???? What dissent?
> >
> > If you are talking about your 'dissent' with Bipin, I have little
> interest
> > in that, in the context of Modi/Gujarat since I do not know enough about
> > Gujarat and am highly suspicious of Modi being any good for India
> > (whatever else might be his claim to what he has done or not-done for
> > Gujarat)
> >
> > I did not comment on your 'dissent'.
> >
> > I commented on the 'assent' you granted to your arrogance by making a
> > generalisation  about "Indian Public" in stating that:
> >
> >  "silencing any rational counter-argument" ...... "has been the problem
> of
> > this list, and of the Indian public, for quite a while now."
> >
> > You obviously see nothing wrong with making such a generalisation.
> >
> > Please have the last word.
> >
> > Kshmendra
> >
> > PS. Your comment to Bipin "Singapore is also a well-working state. But
> > it's not a democracy." seems to suggest that you agree with the article
> > you commented upon and that Gujarat is a "'well-working state" (like
> > Singapore) but that (like Singapore) there is no democracy in
> > Gujarat.        Interesting
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
> > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 5:09 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Kshmendra,
> > that is indeed a very satisfying answer to a reasonable question.
> Bouncing
> > off dissent is the privilege of those who refuse communicating.
> > I have the answer, thanks.
> > B
> >
> >
> > Am 03.06.2010 um 13:10 schrieb Kshmendra Kaul:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Britta
> >
> > If you need to wonder about your "idiotic arrogance" then not much can be
> > said to you.
> >
> > Keep wondering. You might at some stage find the answer.
> >
> > K
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
> > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 10:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I wonder why it should represent an audacity to make a generalisation or
> > to point to a problem. My name is Britta, by the way.
> >
> >> OHM
> >>
> >> Whatever be your feelings about the absence or presence of rationality
> >> or
> >> irrationality in an individual or members of this List, it says much
> >> about
> >> you when you make generalisations about the 'Indian Public'.
> >>
> >> Idiotic arrogance
> >>
> >> Kshmendra
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
> >> To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" <rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 8:57 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> Rajen, you're talking - even within the (lacking) logic of your own
> >> argument - such nonsense that it hurts. If it is deliberate, it is a
> >> smart
> >> move, if not, it is very sad, in any case it has the effect of silencing
> >> any rational counter-argument, and this has been the problem of this
> >> list,
> >> and of the Indian public, for quite a while now.
> >>
> >>
> >>> What courage is needed to mention about the refugee camps of tibetans
> >>> in
> >>> Bylakuppe and bailahongal in Karnataka, where the hard work, no
> >>> nonsense
> >>> approach to life and skills saw the tibetans rise again from strength
> >>> to
> >>> strength, what courage is needed to mention about the jewish camps
> >>> where
> >>> millions were gassed and subsequent rush to other nations where they
> >>> were
> >>> refugees but integreted with the society to rise as powerful
> >>> bankers.?What
> >>> courage is needed to talk about the brilliance of the next generation
> >>> of
> >>> pandits who studied hard, played harder to acquire skills and achieve
> >>> higher
> >>> lifestyles.?
> >>> courage is needed to talk about the camps of useless individuals who
> >>> expect
> >>> all gifts from the system for voting the leaders to power.!
> >>> regards,
> >>> rajen
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:44 PM, anupam chakravartty
> >>> <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bipin Trivedi
> >>>>
> >>>> you do not have the courage to reply back when list members wanted to
> >>>> show
> >>>> you the conditions of the relief camps of 2002 survivors in Gujarat.
> >>>> what
> >>>> are you quoting this report for?
> >>>>
> >>>> anupam
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:34 PM, <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > Singapore is also a well-working state. But it's not a democracy.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The Sachar Committee report indirectly challenges other states to
> >>>> emulate
> >>>> > > Gujarat chief minister's policy of secular development and
> >>>> > ânationalise'
> >>>> > > it
> >>>> > > By Pravin Sheth
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > In setting up the Sachar Committee, the UPA government had its own
> >>>> > > objectives. Contrary to the expectations of Chief Minister
> >>>> Narendra
> >>>> > Modi's
> >>>> > > critics, the committee's comparative statewise statistics of
> >>>> parameters
> >>>> > > like education, employment and income of the Muslim population
> >>>> living
> >>>> in
> >>>> > > the country proves Gujarat is far ahead of other states, even
> >>>> those
> >>>> ruled
> >>>> > > by so-called secular parties.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > In terms of literacy, Muslims in Gujarat stood at 73.5% as
> >>>> compared
> >>>> to
> >>>> > the
> >>>> > > national average of 59.1. The figure for urban males is 76, and 81
> >>>> for
> >>>> > > those in rural areas as compared to the national average of 70 and
> >>>> 62
> >>>> > > respectively in similar categories.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The average literacy rate of Muslim women in urban Gujarat is five
> >>>> points
> >>>> > > higher than the national average, whereas those in rural Gujarat
> >>>> fare
> >>>> > even
> >>>> > > better with a literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the
> >>>> national
> >>>> > > average of 43.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > A greater percentage of Muslims here have attained primary,
> >>>> secondary
> >>>> and
> >>>> > > higher-secondary level education. The national average is 60.9%.
> >>>> Muslim
> >>>> > > children in Gujarat are benefiting from equal opportunities to
> >>>> access
> >>>> > > secondary schooling as other children.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Take other aspect of economic well-being of Muslims in Gujarat.
> >>>> Here
> >>>> > also,
> >>>> > > the Sachar Committee dispels the myth.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The report counters the propaganda that injustice is being done to
> >>>> the
> >>>> > > Muslim community in Gujarat
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The per month per capita income of Muslims in urban Gujarat is an
> >>>> average
> >>>> > > Rs 875 â more than the national average of Rs 804. In contrast, it
> >>>> is
> >>>> > Rs
> >>>> > > 662 in UP, Rs 748 in West Bengal, Rs 811 in Punjab, Rs 803 in
> >>>> Andhra
> >>>> > > Pradesh and Rs 837 in Karnataka.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > In rural Gujarat, the per capita monthly income of Muslims is
> >>>> 20-25%
> >>>> more
> >>>> > > than the Muslims living in rural areas of most other states. On an
> >>>> > > average, it comes to Rs 668 compared to the national average of Rs
> >>>> 553.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > In terms of Muslims living below poverty line, Gujarat improved
> >>>> from
> >>>> 54%
> >>>> > > in 1987-88 to 34% in 2004-2005, showing a healthy pace of
> >>>> improvement.
> >>>> > > Even in terms of share of Muslims in state employment, it is 5.4%
> >>>> in
> >>>> > > Gujarat while it is 2.1% in West Bengal, 3.2% in Delhi and 4.4% in
> >>>> > > Maharashtra.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Overall, the total picture counters the propaganda that injustice
> >>>> is
> >>>> > being
> >>>> > > done to Muslims in Gujarat. The Sachar Committee on educational
> >>>> condition
> >>>> > > clearly shows that the Muslims of Gujarat are progressing well in
> >>>> the
> >>>> > > field of education and economic well-being. They are well cared
> >>>> for.
> >>>> The
> >>>> > > facts on their economic conditions dispel similar myths about
> >>>> their
> >>>> being
> >>>> > > discriminated against or being denied equal opportunity.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The fact is echoed by the Imam of Jama Masjid in Ahmedabad, who
> >>>> > reportedly
> >>>> > > commented sometime back "Muslims have an opportunity to prosper in
> >>>> the
> >>>> > > peaceful environment that the Modi government has created. Modi
> >>>> has
> >>>> > > provided an atmosphere which is conducive for those who want to
> >>>> trade
> >>>> > > peacefully in Gujarat".
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The Sachar report indirectly challenges other states to emulate
> >>>> Modi's
> >>>> > > policy of secular development and ânationalise' it.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Ironically, vociferous secularists are silent regarding the
> >>>> findings.
> >>>> > They
> >>>> > > continue to focus on Modi-1 as branded during the 2002 carnage and
> >>>> > > Sohrabuddin encounter â a chief minister habitually noted to
> >>>> dishonour
> >>>> > > the rule of law, a friend of corporate magnets to the detriment of
> >>>> > > villagers and SEZ-affected disadvantaged.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > However, there is popularly a more accepted Modi-2 â a dynamic CM
> >>>> > > realising the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor, the Special
> >>>> Investment
> >>>> > > Regions, port-based development, âHopenhagen', BRTS, GDP, and much
> >>>> > more.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > But the two Modis fail to merge as some anti-Modi ideologues
> >>>> refuse
> >>>> to
> >>>> > > discern the significant transformation in his leadership.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Can Modi, hubris-free, demonstrate his transformation to abridge
> >>>> this
> >>>> > > perception-reality gap?
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Source Link:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > _________________________________________
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> >>>> >
> >>>> > _________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Rajen.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > Dr. Britta Ohm
> >
> > Institute of Social Anthropology
> > University of Bern
> > Laenggassstr. 49a
> > 3012 Bern
> > Switzerland
> > +41-(0)31-631 8995 (main office)
> > +41-(0)31-631 8997 (direct line)
> > britta.ohm at anthro.unibe.ch
> >
> >
> > Solmsstr. 36
> > 10961 Berlin
> > Germany
> > +49-(0)30-69507155
> >
> > ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________
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