[Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development

[ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de]

Why would you liken a terrible and very irresponsible industrial accident
to a calculated attack?

> Anupam, may be you have other thoughts that muslims are also humans like
> all
> others who suffer in tragic events, but then, why you are quiet when the
> tragedy hit the maximum number of muslims in Bhopal gas tragedy. ? Just
> wondering, is it because it was then ruled by different
> party...................?
>
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 11:22 AM, anupam chakravartty
> <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I thought the discussion was about the condition of Muslims in Gujarat
>> vis-a-vis Sachar committee report, and also about the relief camps. The
>> detractors have succeeded in hijacking the core issue yet again and
>> discuss
>> what is irrelevant and unneccesary.
>>
>> In most "successful" states as it is usually projected to its people,
>> democracy is only a mask especially if the state is proactively
>> projecting
>> itself as a democratic nation. Whether an institution, in this case a
>> state,
>> is democratic, could only be ascertained over a period of time. If i am
>> correctly putting it, the idea of a democracy is not a priori but it is
>> dependent on the experience of the subject. If it is on paper, that is
>> not
>> good enough to say that the state is democratic. It has been observed
>> that,
>> apart from addressing large rallies ( a sign of majoritarianism),
>> inspecting
>> business models of large corporate houses and playing the 'cheif guest'
>> (in
>> certain cases for marriages as well), if the head of the state is saying
>> she/he is ruling over a democratic institution, they are either lying to
>> the
>> people or they live in some kind of make-believe. ICT enabled approaches
>> has
>> even allowed some of the ministers in the state to address the subjects
>> through video conferencing. the excuse is usually a packed schedule or a
>> security threat!
>>
>> Frankly, I would not know about Singapore, but yes! several states in
>> India,
>> especially Gujarat in the recent times, Assam between 1990 to 2005, and
>> India in general during the emergency years how a select group of
>> persons
>> subvert the rights of the people for their own political good. There
>> exists
>> other examples from these states where democracy or a system resembling
>> certain democratic ethos were highlighted to project itself as what
>> could
>> be
>> called democratic. However, it is pretense.
>>
>> But at the same time, the issue cannot be solved by highlighting only
>> certain examples. it is the existing examples where such pretenses exist
>> need to addressed, which can go a long way to solve such issues. One of
>> the
>> best approaches could be a participatory approach through both non state
>> and
>> state actors.
>>
>> Anupam
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Britta,
>> >
>> > Majoritarianism is not democracy.
>> >
>> > Is this statement you prefer for Gujarat only? Since all the states,
>> union
>> > government at Delhi all are ruling with majority in democracy! You are
>> from
>> > German and there is lots of difference in German and Indian politics,
>> > ethics, discipline of public.
>> >
>> > Voters can easily come in the trap of political party offered by them
>> as
>> a
>> > lollipop for short gain which is ultimately harmful to the public.
>> Indian
>> > public has to learn more on moral, ethics, discipline point of view. I
>> hope
>> > with this statement you must be aware of Indian political history and
>> if
>> not
>> > make study then make yourself eligible for any such comment.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Bipin
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:
>> reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]
>> > On Behalf Of ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 8:55 PM
>> > To: Kshmendra Kaul
>> > Cc: sarai list
>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>> >
>> > First of all we obviously have a dissent on the question whether
>> > generalisations about the Indian public can be made or not, and given
>> that
>> > you accuse me of idiotic arrogance in this regard this dissent in
>> itself
>> > is very strong. So please tell me what exactly you find wrong with my
>> > doing so. Then we have a second dissent which concerns the very
>> question
>> > of idiotic arrogance on my part, which I clearly dispute.
>> > Since you brought in Bipin now: 'well-working' in terms of
>> organisation
>> is
>> > not the same as 'well-working' in terms of democracy. The Third Reich
>> > worked extremely well in terms of annihilating the German and European
>> > Jews. Singapore works extremely well in terms of providing economic
>> > security while curtailing freedom of speech. Under these conditions
>> it's
>> > obviously difficult to make out whether this finds the actual majority
>> of
>> > the voters, but even if it does, it's not democratic. Gujarat, which
>> > cannot openly curtail democratic rights, works extremely well in
>> > concealing the plight of many Muslims by simply denying that they
>> exist
>> > and by denying that the state systematically clamps down on those who
>> > disrupt the picture presented. By finding a majority of the voters for
>> > this strategy, it is indeed well-functioning but undermining
>> democracy.
>> > Majoritarianism is not democracy.
>> >
>> >
>> > > Dear Britta
>> > >
>> > > Dissent???? What dissent?
>> > >
>> > > If you are talking about your 'dissent' with Bipin, I have little
>> > interest
>> > > in that, in the context of Modi/Gujarat since I do not know enough
>> about
>> > > Gujarat and am highly suspicious of Modi being any good for India
>> > > (whatever else might be his claim to what he has done or not-done
>> for
>> > > Gujarat)
>> > >
>> > > I did not comment on your 'dissent'.
>> > >
>> > > I commented on the 'assent' you granted to your arrogance by making
>> a
>> > > generalisation  about "Indian Public" in stating that:
>> > >
>> > >  "silencing any rational counter-argument" ...... "has been the
>> problem
>> > of
>> > > this list, and of the Indian public, for quite a while now."
>> > >
>> > > You obviously see nothing wrong with making such a generalisation.
>> > >
>> > > Please have the last word.
>> > >
>> > > Kshmendra
>> > >
>> > > PS. Your comment to Bipin "Singapore is also a well-working state.
>> But
>> > > it's not a democracy." seems to suggest that you agree with the
>> article
>> > > you commented upon and that Gujarat is a "'well-working state" (like
>> > > Singapore) but that (like Singapore) there is no democracy in
>> > > Gujarat.        Interesting
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From: Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>> > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> > > Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 5:09 PM
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Kshmendra,
>> > > that is indeed a very satisfying answer to a reasonable question.
>> > Bouncing
>> > > off dissent is the privilege of those who refuse communicating.
>> > > I have the answer, thanks.
>> > > B
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Am 03.06.2010 um 13:10 schrieb Kshmendra Kaul:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Britta
>> > >
>> > > If you need to wonder about your "idiotic arrogance" then not much
>> can
>> be
>> > > said to you.
>> > >
>> > > Keep wondering. You might at some stage find the answer.
>> > >
>> > > K
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>> > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> > > Cc: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> > > Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 10:17 PM
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I wonder why it should represent an audacity to make a
>> generalisation
>> or
>> > > to point to a problem. My name is Britta, by the way.
>> > >
>> > >> OHM
>> > >>
>> > >> Whatever be your feelings about the absence or presence of
>> rationality
>> > >> or
>> > >> irrationality in an individual or members of this List, it says
>> much
>> > >> about
>> > >> you when you make generalisations about the 'Indian Public'.
>> > >>
>> > >> Idiotic arrogance
>> > >>
>> > >> Kshmendra
>> > >>
>> > >> --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>> > >> To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" <rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>
>> > >> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> > >> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 8:57 PM
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Rajen, you're talking - even within the (lacking) logic of your own
>> > >> argument - such nonsense that it hurts. If it is deliberate, it is
>> a
>> > >> smart
>> > >> move, if not, it is very sad, in any case it has the effect of
>> silencing
>> > >> any rational counter-argument, and this has been the problem of
>> this
>> > >> list,
>> > >> and of the Indian public, for quite a while now.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> What courage is needed to mention about the refugee camps of
>> tibetans
>> > >>> in
>> > >>> Bylakuppe and bailahongal in Karnataka, where the hard work, no
>> > >>> nonsense
>> > >>> approach to life and skills saw the tibetans rise again from
>> strength
>> > >>> to
>> > >>> strength, what courage is needed to mention about the jewish camps
>> > >>> where
>> > >>> millions were gassed and subsequent rush to other nations where
>> they
>> > >>> were
>> > >>> refugees but integreted with the society to rise as powerful
>> > >>> bankers.?What
>> > >>> courage is needed to talk about the brilliance of the next
>> generation
>> > >>> of
>> > >>> pandits who studied hard, played harder to acquire skills and
>> achieve
>> > >>> higher
>> > >>> lifestyles.?
>> > >>> courage is needed to talk about the camps of useless individuals
>> who
>> > >>> expect
>> > >>> all gifts from the system for voting the leaders to power.!
>> > >>> regards,
>> > >>> rajen
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:44 PM, anupam chakravartty
>> > >>> <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Bipin Trivedi
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> you do not have the courage to reply back when list members
>> wanted
>> to
>> > >>>> show
>> > >>>> you the conditions of the relief camps of 2002 survivors in
>> Gujarat.
>> > >>>> what
>> > >>>> are you quoting this report for?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> anupam
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:34 PM, <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> > Singapore is also a well-working state. But it's not a
>> democracy.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > The Sachar Committee report indirectly challenges other
>> states
>> to
>> > >>>> emulate
>> > >>>> > > Gujarat chief minister's policy of secular development and
>> > >>>> > ânationalise'
>> > >>>> > > it
>> > >>>> > > By Pravin Sheth
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > In setting up the Sachar Committee, the UPA government had
>> its
>> own
>> > >>>> > > objectives. Contrary to the expectations of Chief Minister
>> > >>>> Narendra
>> > >>>> > Modi's
>> > >>>> > > critics, the committee's comparative statewise statistics of
>> > >>>> parameters
>> > >>>> > > like education, employment and income of the Muslim
>> population
>> > >>>> living
>> > >>>> in
>> > >>>> > > the country proves Gujarat is far ahead of other states, even
>> > >>>> those
>> > >>>> ruled
>> > >>>> > > by so-called secular parties.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > In terms of literacy, Muslims in Gujarat stood at 73.5% as
>> > >>>> compared
>> > >>>> to
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > > national average of 59.1. The figure for urban males is 76,
>> and
>> 81
>> > >>>> for
>> > >>>> > > those in rural areas as compared to the national average of
>> 70
>> and
>> > >>>> 62
>> > >>>> > > respectively in similar categories.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > The average literacy rate of Muslim women in urban Gujarat is
>> five
>> > >>>> points
>> > >>>> > > higher than the national average, whereas those in rural
>> Gujarat
>> > >>>> fare
>> > >>>> > even
>> > >>>> > > better with a literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the
>> > >>>> national
>> > >>>> > > average of 43.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > A greater percentage of Muslims here have attained primary,
>> > >>>> secondary
>> > >>>> and
>> > >>>> > > higher-secondary level education. The national average is
>> 60.9%.
>> > >>>> Muslim
>> > >>>> > > children in Gujarat are benefiting from equal opportunities
>> to
>> > >>>> access
>> > >>>> > > secondary schooling as other children.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Take other aspect of economic well-being of Muslims in
>> Gujarat.
>> > >>>> Here
>> > >>>> > also,
>> > >>>> > > the Sachar Committee dispels the myth.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > The report counters the propaganda that injustice is being
>> done
>> to
>> > >>>> the
>> > >>>> > > Muslim community in Gujarat
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > The per month per capita income of Muslims in urban Gujarat
>> is
>> an
>> > >>>> average
>> > >>>> > > Rs 875 â more than the national average of Rs 804. In
>> contrast,
>> it
>> > >>>> is
>> > >>>> > Rs
>> > >>>> > > 662 in UP, Rs 748 in West Bengal, Rs 811 in Punjab, Rs 803 in
>> > >>>> Andhra
>> > >>>> > > Pradesh and Rs 837 in Karnataka.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > In rural Gujarat, the per capita monthly income of Muslims is
>> > >>>> 20-25%
>> > >>>> more
>> > >>>> > > than the Muslims living in rural areas of most other states.
>> On
>> an
>> > >>>> > > average, it comes to Rs 668 compared to the national average
>> of
>> Rs
>> > >>>> 553.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > In terms of Muslims living below poverty line, Gujarat
>> improved
>> > >>>> from
>> > >>>> 54%
>> > >>>> > > in 1987-88 to 34% in 2004-2005, showing a healthy pace of
>> > >>>> improvement.
>> > >>>> > > Even in terms of share of Muslims in state employment, it is
>> 5.4%
>> > >>>> in
>> > >>>> > > Gujarat while it is 2.1% in West Bengal, 3.2% in Delhi and
>> 4.4%
>> in
>> > >>>> > > Maharashtra.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Overall, the total picture counters the propaganda that
>> injustice
>> > >>>> is
>> > >>>> > being
>> > >>>> > > done to Muslims in Gujarat. The Sachar Committee on
>> educational
>> > >>>> condition
>> > >>>> > > clearly shows that the Muslims of Gujarat are progressing
>> well
>> in
>> > >>>> the
>> > >>>> > > field of education and economic well-being. They are well
>> cared
>> > >>>> for.
>> > >>>> The
>> > >>>> > > facts on their economic conditions dispel similar myths about
>> > >>>> their
>> > >>>> being
>> > >>>> > > discriminated against or being denied equal opportunity.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > The fact is echoed by the Imam of Jama Masjid in Ahmedabad,
>> who
>> > >>>> > reportedly
>> > >>>> > > commented sometime back "Muslims have an opportunity to
>> prosper
>> in
>> > >>>> the
>> > >>>> > > peaceful environment that the Modi government has created.
>> Modi
>> > >>>> has
>> > >>>> > > provided an atmosphere which is conducive for those who want
>> to
>> > >>>> trade
>> > >>>> > > peacefully in Gujarat".
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > The Sachar report indirectly challenges other states to
>> emulate
>> > >>>> Modi's
>> > >>>> > > policy of secular development and ânationalise' it.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Ironically, vociferous secularists are silent regarding the
>> > >>>> findings.
>> > >>>> > They
>> > >>>> > > continue to focus on Modi-1 as branded during the 2002
>> carnage
>> and
>> > >>>> > > Sohrabuddin encounter â a chief minister habitually noted to
>> > >>>> dishonour
>> > >>>> > > the rule of law, a friend of corporate magnets to the
>> detriment
>> of
>> > >>>> > > villagers and SEZ-affected disadvantaged.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > However, there is popularly a more accepted Modi-2 â a
>> dynamic
>> CM
>> > >>>> > > realising the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor, the Special
>> > >>>> Investment
>> > >>>> > > Regions, port-based development, âHopenhagen', BRTS, GDP, and
>> much
>> > >>>> > more.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > But the two Modis fail to merge as some anti-Modi ideologues
>> > >>>> refuse
>> > >>>> to
>> > >>>> > > discern the significant transformation in his leadership.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Can Modi, hubris-free, demonstrate his transformation to
>> abridge
>> > >>>> this
>> > >>>> > > perception-reality gap?
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Source Link:
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > _________________________________________
>> > >>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > >>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > >>>> > > To subscribe: send an email to
>> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
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>> > >>>> > > List archive:
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>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > _________________________________________
>> > >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
>> with
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>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> _________________________________________
>> > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > >>>> subscribe in the subject header.
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>> > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> Rajen.
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _________________________________________
>> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > >> Critiques & Collaborations
>> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > >> subscribe in the subject header.
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>> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ---------------------------------------
>> > > Dr. Britta Ohm
>> > >
>> > > Institute of Social Anthropology
>> > > University of Bern
>> > > Laenggassstr. 49a
>> > > 3012 Bern
>> > > Switzerland
>> > > +41-(0)31-631 8995 (main office)
>> > > +41-(0)31-631 8997 (direct line)
>> > > britta.ohm at anthro.unibe.ch
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Solmsstr. 36
>> > > 10961 Berlin
>> > > Germany
>> > > +49-(0)30-69507155
>> > >
>> > > ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>> >
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>> >
>> _________________________________________
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>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rajen.
>