[Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA
Shuddhabrata Sengupta
shuddha at sarai.net
Thu May 6 08:29:36 IST 2010
Dear Yasir,
Flux Zindabad.
I think things are really interesting right now in Pakistan, and I
hope that independent voices are able to create the terms of a new
conversation. That is why I find your postings on this list, very
valuable.
I find it a matter of shame, that instead of recognizing the fact
that you are often pointing to something new that is emerging, the
die hard Indian nationalists on this list (who are the identical
mirror images of their Pakistani counterparts) are not able to see
anything of value in what is happening. Sometimes I wish for an
uninhabited island in the Arabian sea where the jingoists of both
countries could be sent to cultivate their mutual hatred, so that the
rest of us, who constitute the vast majority of people in South Asia,
could get on with our lives. Of course, I know that that is neither
possible, nor desirable, (and as far as I know there are no
uninhabited islands in the Arabian Sea) so we will have to keep
arguing with them, and strengthening our bonds across the obscenity
of borders.
best, and in solidarity,
Shuddha
On 06-May-10, at 12:10 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote:
> Thanks, Shuddha
>
> I am afraid it is this kind of thinking on both sides which has led
> to the
> buildup on our side. That is, the dominance of the military over
> civil life,
> of generals over politicians, the derailment of the bureaucracy in
> from
> providing services, and huge distortions in politics. The thinking
> here is
> that we need to get rid of this (to put it in a nutshell) and the
> sooner the
> better.
>
> One has to work with state. The word reform fails to convey the
> magnitude of
> the task. Relations with India are crucial on this as an external
> factor. There are positive signs inside Pakistan as well, in case
> anyone
> followed the Lawyers Movement and the Restoration of the Judiciary
> which was
> thrown out by the previous (Musharraf's) military government. We
> are going
> through a very interesting period in which the relationships are being
> renegotiated between the pillars of state, but also political
> entities and
> the army. We have ended up with an empowered media and against all
> odds, a
> reinvigorated independant Judiciary. As someone said all is flux.
>
> best
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
>
>> Dear Yasir,
>>
>> People who are unable to separate themselves from the agendas of the
>> militarist elites of their own states automatically assume that
>> everyone,
>> everywhere in the world is exactly like them.
>>
>> Thanks for your valuable postings,
>>
>> best
>>
>> Shuddha
>>
>>
>> On 05-May-10, at 3:34 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote:
>>
>> once again you have deliberately missed the point, as impossible
>> as it is
>> to
>> do both at the same time. My point was about the people not the
>> foreign
>> policy, not the army, yet you choose to mix them up, because thats
>> what you
>> are refusing top separate, and see the separate entinities of the
>> people,
>> the army, the govts. we are not radically democratic, only mildly so
>> electing the same people from the same classes, when the army is not
>> actively interfering in the vote counts,or runninga martial
>> regime.. i
>> suggest you reread what i wrote. i dont find it of use to go in the
>> directions you are suggesting, since you have missed the sole
>> point of it.
>> your nationalism blinds you to your own hierarchical and class
>> realities,
>> you cannot breathe without. in fact it shows your inability to
>> speak about
>> it. enough said.
>>
>> Buck up. perfect perfect perfect.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument
>> raised.
>> Keep it up.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-
>> bounces at sarai.net<reader-list-bounces at sarai.net>
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM
>> To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA
>>
>> Dear Yasir
>>
>> From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure",
>> Pakistan's
>> favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself.
>>
>> Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from
>> 1971.
>>
>> Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the
>> "Instrument of
>> Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which
>> (unlike
>> India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not
>> 'eat up'
>> Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India.
>>
>> Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram
>> Sehgal's
>> http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm)
>>
>> Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000
>> POWs without
>> getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in
>> trusting
>> whatever Bhutto had promised her.
>>
>> Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil
>> operation.
>>
>> Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected
>> Budgets) has as
>> much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of
>> Islam) as
>> it
>> has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has
>> provoked.
>>
>> By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India
>> should be
>> trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there
>> are two
>> 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan.
>>
>> India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of
>> it's GDP
>> when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come
>> dowm to
>> 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11.
>>
>> And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up'
>> Hyderabad&Junagad or
>> Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would
>> contradict
>> itself when applied to the other.
>>
>> Kshmendra
>>
>> --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA
>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM
>>
>>
>> no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please
>> get this
>> right.
>>
>> if you ask us, we will tell you the following:
>> the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of
>> pakistan, the
>> pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a
>> mercenary state
>> for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development
>> in real
>> terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with
>> many
>> systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days
>> woefully
>> nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the
>> answer is
>> quite
>> severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india
>> which is
>> many
>> itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after
>> breaking it
>> up
>> into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and
>> kashmir. so we
>> are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the
>> US, leaving
>> little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited
>> people
>> at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you
>> imagine
>> what
>> kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck
>> to this
>> stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the
>> war on
>> terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the
>> covert US
>> action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and
>> Pakistanis
>> then
>> disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the
>> militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring
>> tom
>> cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there
>> is no
>> conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough'
>> and then
>> we
>> have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the
>> border.
>>
>> so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having
>> destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it
>> should be
>> like.
>> i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility
>> of the US
>> in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this
>> history.
>>
>> best
>>
>> y
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
>> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very
>> gratefully.
>>
>> In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are
>> not
>> paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!"
>>
>> --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA
>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM
>>
>> one needs to add much salt here:
>>
>>
>> - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army
>> version
>> - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported,
>> including
>> extra judicial killings and right violations
>> - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently
>> not
>> taken
>> care of by anyone let alone by govt
>> - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US
>> pressuring the
>>
>> PK
>>
>> army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to
>> unstable
>> conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term
>>
>> view,
>>
>> while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com<
>>
>> http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar@gmail.com>>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> FRONT-PAGE
>> ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹
>>
>> By Our Correspondent
>>
>> Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST |
>>
>>
>> WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at
>>
>> least
>>
>> 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its
>> Œunprecedented¹
>> crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon
>> report.
>>
>> In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the
>> Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the
>> biggest in the country¹s history on the western border.
>>
>> ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against
>> India
>> indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent
>>
>> threat.²
>>
>>
>> The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in
>>
>> the
>>
>> tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high
>>
>> degree
>>
>> of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in
>>
>> eastern
>>
>> Afghanistan.
>>
>> The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of
>> Afghan
>> Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani
>>
>> Baradar,
>>
>> have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of
>> their
>>
>> safe
>>
>> havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them.
>>
>> This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by
>>
>> India
>>
>> ‹
>>
>> that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated
>> settlement with the Taliban leadership.
>>
>> The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the
>>
>> arrests
>>
>> in
>> Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban
>>
>> sympathisers
>>
>> in
>> Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in
>> the
>> Taliban².
>>
>> The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused
>>
>> almost
>>
>> exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any
>> ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term².
>>
>> But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a
>>
>> greater
>>
>> impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL
>>
>> (Pakistani
>>
>> military) operations evolve,² the report adds.
>>
>> ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its
>> successful
>> operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora,
>>
>> South
>>
>> Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore,
>>
>> far
>>
>> away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have
>>
>> shaken
>>
>> Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being,
>>
>> insurgent
>>
>> ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani
>> operations,²
>>
>> the
>>
>> report warns.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-
>> newspaper/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-
>> pentagon-040<
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-
>> newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-
>> indian-border-pentagon-040
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>> Raqs Media Collective
>> shuddha at sarai.net
>> www.sarai.net
>> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>
>>
>>
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Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net
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