[Reader-list] My Wings of Fire ( Reply To Shudha ji )

Khaqsar Wangoo veeruz at gmail.com
Thu Nov 4 06:49:16 IST 2010 

Dear Shudha ji,

Almighty didn't give me the privelege to have wings ( left or Right
),so labelling me as Rightists would be challenging his wisdom.

Being leftist or centrist is again a misnormer. Will stone pelting
make me centrist moderate or wielding gun make me leftist.

A Refugee in his own nation has no ideology but a yearing to undo the
past and wish to return to his homeland.

You may laugh at it now... why r u waiting for future archives. I have
archived my 7 exoduses at Breif History of Kashmir
http://koshur.blogspot.com . Plz laugh at that archive.

My question was a simple one but your reaction was complex one with a
sense of heart burn against my so called friends even. Man becomes a
militant thrologist with a Narcissist (no spell check ) ideology
whenever he thinks that other person is writing or saying THRASH. Plz
abstain SHUDHA ( the pure ).

I regret that SARAI would like to listen only to the people who
subscribe to Leftis Moist Islamic militant ideology only rather than
simple humanistic view.

My Wings of Fire are yet to be unleashed on Sarai , please don't panic
but collaborate on a healthy debate.

Regards,

Khaqsar Wangoo





On 11/4/10, reader-list-request at sarai.net <reader-list-request at sarai.net> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Social status doesn’t give immunity to fiction-writer
>       Arundhati Roy (Aditya Raj Kaul)
>    2. Re: Social status doesn’t give immunity to fiction-writer
>       Arundhati Roy (Rajkamal Goswami)
>    3. Re: Social status doesn’t give immunity to fiction-writer
>       Arundhati Roy (Rajkamal Goswami)
>    4. Re: Social status doesn’t give immunity to fiction-writer
>       Arundhati Roy (anupam chakravartty)
>    5. Re: Fwd: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator
>       approval (shuddha at sarai.net)
>    6. Re: discomfort (Ana Valdés)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 00:43:45 +0530
> From: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Subject: [Reader-list] Social status doesn’t give immunity to
> 	fiction-writer Arundhati Roy
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTi=jLjp2tSmKHSeqsdBX=Q8DMiT263q1AESb6f1h at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> *Social status doesn’t give immunity to Arundhati*
> November 04, 2010   12:46:47 AM
>
> *Amitabh Thakur*
>
> *Just because Arundhati Roy is hailed as intellectual, law must not be
> misinterpreted to legalize her act of sedition. Because no law permits such
> transgression wrapped in pleas and rhetoric where its very foundation is
> questioned*
>
> Arundhati Roy needs no introduction in India or abroad. A Booker Prize
> winner, she has over the period emerged as a social activist who has her own
> perspectives and thoughts on many pertinent issues. More often than not,
> these views get into lots of controversy. There are people who say that
> these controversies turn into an advantage for Arundhati Roy, who always
> comes up with larger number of fans and followers in the aftermath of each
> such controversy.
>
> Possibly following the same thing, in a meeting on Kashmir called “Azadi —
> The Only Way” organised in LTG Auditorium, New Delhi, on October 21, she
> along with SAR Geelani and Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke words which clearly
> come in the purview of sedition. She said, “Kashmir should get *azadi *from
> *bhookhey-nangey * Hindustan … India needs *azadi *from Kashmir and Kashmir
> from India. It is a good debate that has started. We must deepen this
> conversation and am happy that young people are getting involved for this
> cause, which is their future.” Similarly at a seminar on “Wither Kashmir:
> Freedom or enslavement” held in Srinagar Arundhati Roy said, “Kashmir has
> never been an integral part of India. It is a historical fact. Even the
> Indian Government has accepted this.”
>
> Now, we all know that Article 19(1)(a) of our Constitution provides right to
> freedom of speech and expression to all its citizen but at the same time
> Article 19(2) imposes reasonable restrictions on the exercise of the right
> conferred by the said subclause in the interests of the sovereignty and
> integrity of India, the security of the State etc. Similarly, section 121,
> 121A and 124A of the Indian Penal Code talk of waging, or attempting to wage
> war, or abetting waging of war, against the Government of India and also
> about sedition. Sedition is very clearly defined as an act “by words, either
> spoken or written, or by signs, or by visible representation, or otherwise”
> bringing or attempting to bring into hatred or contempt, or exciting or
> attempting to excite disaffection towards the Government established by law
> in India.
>
> So far these laws remain very much in force in India. In fact, Article
> 19(2)(a) and section 124A of the IPC has been challenged many a times even
> in the Supreme Court but the highest Court of the land has upheld it as
> being constitutional and illegal. Thus, as ordinary citizen of India we are
> duty bound to follow them. In case anyone of us have views divergent to the
> above laws, we only have two options — either to get them amended in the
> Parliament or to get them stuck down in the Court. None of these has been
> done and hence it becomes the duty of a citizen to follow them in letter and
> spirit. Or to face the legal consequences when we violate it. There is not
> much genius required to understand this, this is simple logic.
>
> Yes, we all have the right as human beings to have certain opinions and
> views and also to firmly believe in them but when it comes to expressing
> these views in the public domain, each one of us has to adhere to the law of
> the land. There exists the paramountcy of law, as long as it exists in a
> given format and no one, including Arundhati Roy can be considered to be
> above law. And when the matter is related with the basic integrity and unity
> of the nation, the seriousness of the matter increases manifold. This is
> important because any laxity or relaxation on this account might act as a
> motivating factor and precedence to others to take law in their own hands,
> to the extent of playing with the nation’s very basic foundations. The
> situation becomes all the more serious when the persons committing the crime
> are considered among the respected members of the society and claim to be
> intellectuals and thinkers in their own way.
>
> I don’t need to explain why the words quoted above as being that of
> Arundhati Roy fall under the purview of sedition. Can one think of any
> nation which would allow open talks of its own dismemberment? When the very
> basic foundation and existence of the country is lost, how can it cater to
> its other required duties? So, just because Arundhati Roy is a celebrity and
> has widely been hailed as an intellectual, do her illegal and
> unconstitutional words become legalised?
>
> After the matter became hotly discussed, Arundhati Roy is quoted to have
> said that she said what millions of people here say every day. She says that
> her speeches are fundamentally a call for justice and that she “spoke about
> justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of the most brutal
> military occupations in the world”. She also blames someone (presumably
> India) in the following words- “Pity the nation that has to silence its
> writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that needs to jail those
> who ask for justice”.
>
> But do all these pleas and rhetoric make a crime, as defined in a law book,
> as something else? Which law would permit such a transgression where it’s
> very foundations are questioned? And if a person still feels that what he or
> she is speaking is true, then another thing shall happen simultaneously —
> the code of law shall be imposed in the most impassioned, efficient and
> value-neutral manner, without thinking twice about who it is that is
> violating the law. This is the basic criteria and definition of law that we
> all understand and adhere to.
>
> --*The writer, presently on study leave at IIM Lucknow, is an IPS officers
> of UP Cadre.
>
> Link -
> http://www.dailypioneer.com/294261/Social-status-doesn%E2%80%99t-give-immunity-to-Arundhati.html
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 01:01:59 +0530
> From: Rajkamal Goswami <rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com>
> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Social status doesn’t give immunity to
> 	fiction-writer Arundhati Roy
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTimKpp853ZAGaDF5Mfy7ncMdCBsW+d1Neo_j3nH8 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dear Aditya,
>
> "..............So far these laws remain very much in force in India. In
> fact, Article
> 19(2)(a) and section 124A of the IPC has been challenged many a times even
> in the Supreme Court but the highest Court of the land has upheld it as
> being constitutional and illegal. Thus, as ordinary citizen of India we are
> duty bound to follow them. ......"
>
> The words above are from the article that you sent around. Can you (or Mr.
> Thakur, ips) explain the meaning of these words in the context in which it
> is being used?
>
> I would reserve my critique of the article till then.
>
> Thanks
> Rajkamal
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 01:03:36 +0530
> From: Rajkamal Goswami <rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com>
> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Social status doesn’t give immunity to
> 	fiction-writer Arundhati Roy
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTi=44aYHYSyRf=cOwYEzuvbyrYe91qCu2uPazXFf at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> When I say "these words" in my previous mail, I mean the words that I
> highlighted.
>
> thanks
> Rajkamal
>
> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 1:01 AM, Rajkamal Goswami
> <rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Dear Aditya,
>>
>> "..............So far these laws remain very much in force in India. In
>> fact, Article
>> 19(2)(a) and section 124A of the IPC has been challenged many a times even
>> in the Supreme Court but the highest Court of the land has upheld it as
>> being constitutional and illegal. Thus, as ordinary citizen of India we
>> are
>> duty bound to follow them. ......"
>>
>> The words above are from the article that you sent around. Can you (or Mr.
>> Thakur, ips) explain the meaning of these words in the context in which it
>> is being used?
>>
>> I would reserve my critique of the article till then.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Rajkamal
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rajkamal
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 01:24:23 +0530
> From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> To: Rajkamal Goswami <rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com>,	sarai list
> 	<reader-list at sarai.net>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Social status doesn’t give immunity to
> 	fiction-writer Arundhati Roy
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTi=tzGVkzsXwCPeQnH5-fJgTij-XYLZnHs737Wah at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Mr Thakur writes: "She also blames someone (presumably India) in the
> following words- “Pity the nation that has to silence its writers for
> speaking their minds. Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for
> justice”.
>
> Haven't we been presuming a lot of things recently about people and passing
> judgments? Even I have been doing so. I feel guilty.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 01:35:29 +0530
> From: "shuddha at sarai.net" <shuddha at sarai.net>
> To: <reader-list at sarai.net> , Khaqsar Wangoo <veeruz at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Your message to reader-list awaits
> 	moderator	approval
> Message-ID: <13916c1e7c59e56f6a4443e126577733 at mail.sarai.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=fixed
>
> Dear Mr. Wangoo,
>
> I am not the moderator of the list, but I am aware of how this list works,
> and
> electronic discussion lists in general function. When you get a message from
> the list-bot such as (<reader-list-bounces at sarai.net> which is a software
> programme not a human being) saying that your "Message has implicit
> destination"
>
> it occurs because - of a simple oversight on the part of the sender, such as
> a
> person not filling in the To or CC fields of the message.
>
> For more on this see
>
> http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030676
>
> Please do us the favour of refraining from imagining that this list
> 'censors'
> the kind of right-wing trash that you and your friends regularly send on to
> the
> list. No, every piece of garbage that is sent to this list is archived, so
> that
> decades from now we can laugh (or sigh) at the madness, lies and calumny
> that
> you all put us through, and that we all suffer, patiently.
>
> best,
>
> Shuddha (your fellow list member)
>
>
> On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 21:57:45 +0530 Khaqsar Wangoo <veeruz at gmail.com> wrote
>
>> Any Reason why Free Speech is being moderated at SARAI now ?
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: <reader-list-bounces at sarai.net>
>> Date: Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:53 PM
>> Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval
>> To: veeruz at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject
>>
>>    Court asks for report on Geelani, Arundhati speeches
>>
>> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>>
>> The reason it is being held:
>>
>>    Message has implicit destination
>>
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
>> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>>
>>
>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/confirm/reader-list/2a7d195eab3113d55ddb4a923c
>> 381eae1c08d973
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe
>> in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 00:08:33 +0100
> From: Ana Valdés <agora158 at gmail.com>
> To: francesca recchia <kiccovich at yahoo.com>
> Cc: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] discomfort
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTikAfqo3zVbUDCZ9LE3mVDntoiC2r+Ar3gSKpWVa at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Thank you dear Shudda for your kind letter! I agree with you and others
> about the need to widen the reach of this list, I feel than many topics you
> discuss about India today are the same topics we discussed when I was young
> in South America in the 70:s.
> Freedom of expression is not only a right but it's also a responsability and
> I think we should be careful and remember the words of the German priest
> Martin Niemöller.
> He wrote:
> "When they come for the communists I didn't react
> I was not a communist
> When they took the tradeunionsleaders I didn't react
> I was not a tradeunionist
> They come for the catholics I didn't react
> I was not a catholic
> When they come for me
> it was nobody who could speak for me"-
>
> (I quote Niemöller from memory now, I think the poem was much more detailed
> :(
>
> I am not for or against what Arundathi Roy say, I don't have any knowledge
> in the matter. But I defend her right to express her opinions without
> attracting a ,mob who vandalize her house.
>
>
> Best
> Ana
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 6:53 PM, francesca recchia
> <kiccovich at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Dear Shudda and all
>>
>> Thank you very much for your messages. I very much appreciated that voices
>> who
>> are generally quieter felt the need to reply - there is a diversity in the
>> list
>> that is worth ackonwledging and giving value to.
>>
>> The question of freedom of expression is an interesting one. It is a
>> subject
>> very dear to me - last May I tried to organise a public debate on this
>> subject
>> in Iraqi Kurdistan and was denied the autorisation.
>> Still I feel the need of questioning what freedom of speech actually
>> means.
>> And
>> what is the role of individual responsability in excercising such freedom.
>> I am
>> not talking about self-censorship, but rather about respect and "good
>> manners"
>> (however old fashion this might sound).
>>
>> Thanks
>> Francesca
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  francesca recchia
>> kiccovich at yahoo.com
>> it +39 338 166 3648
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "shuddha at sarai.net" <shuddha at sarai.net>
>> To: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>; francesca recchia <kiccovich at yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Wed, 3 November, 2010 17:04:16
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] discomfort
>>
>> Dear Francesca,
>>
>> Thank you very much for your message. I feel equally disheartened on
>> seeing
>> this list being abused to call for bans, denunciations and character
>> assasination of all kinds, particularly by a motivated minority of people
>> on
>> this list whose 'nationalism' permits them to cross the lines of decency
>> on
>> more than one occasion.
>>
>> I believe that this list is a space for the freedom of speech,
>> unfortunately,
>> this means that we have to live with this kind of abuse. While I
>> completely
>> disagree with the kind of speech that some people practice obsessively on
>> this
>> list, I believe that it is their right to do what they wish with their
>> speech
>> acts.The only antidote to it is for everyone else, like you, like me, like
>> all
>> those committed to an open space to post, with care and with passion, and
>> about
>> a diversity of issues, to not let any one issue, any one tenor, dominate
>> the
>> tone and character of the list.
>>
>> My appeal to you would be to you, and to all the silent readers of the
>> list, to
>> reclaim the list, to make it their own, to discuss all the diverse and
>> strange
>> and rich experiences that are a part of our daily lives and thoughts may
>> find a
>> reflection in this sapce,  so that the efforts of an aggressive minority
>> to
>> monopolize the space of discussion is not able to succeed.
>>
>> If we believe in freedom of speech, then we have to enrich this space, to
>> demonstrate that freedom of speech is not ONLY the freedom to hate and
>> spread
>> poison.
>>
>> I look forward to reading what you, and what everyone thinks and feels,
>>
>> best,
>>
>> Shuddha
>>
>> On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 00:58:14 -0700 (PDT) francesca recchia <
>> kiccovich at yahoo.com>
>> wrote
>>
>> > Dear all
>> >
>> >
>> > I am writing this message as in the past days it often happen to me to
>> > discuss
>> > about the list with different people from different contexts in
>> > different
>> > places.
>> >
>> > I feel that the potentials of exchange and interactions that the list
>> offers
>> > are
>> > immense - an incredible spring of food for thoughts that unfortunately
>> often
>> > gets lost in personal attacks, petty accusations, aggressive tones and
>> > dismissive attitude.
>> > I understand that some political matters are close to people's heart,
>> > but
>> > this
>> > does not justify the lowering of the tone of the intellectual exchange.
>> >
>> > I have often thought of unsubscribing, but the knowledge that every once
>> in a
>> >
>> > while there is the chance of positive engagement  prevented me from
>> > doing
>> so.
>> >
>> > My posts have often gone unanswered - i reckon they are not very
>> interesting
>> > to
>> > the other members - i wonder whether this will get any response. :)
>> >
>> > Warmly
>> > francesca
>> > francesca recchia
>> > kiccovich at yahoo.com
>> > it +39 338 166 3648
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe
>> > in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your
> eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always long
> to return.
> — Leonardo da Vinci
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> reader-list mailing list
> reader-list at sarai.net
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>
>
> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 88, Issue 21
> *******************************************
>

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