[Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled

[kamalhak at gmail.com]

Dear Inder,
I think this debate is changing its course and heading towards a situation that has no bearing to the origin. I am perfectly OK with this as any K discourse is bound to be as full of complexities as abound  in original problem.
 
I agree with your assertion regarding GOI also being responsible for the K mess. I don't think we should be debating on an already accepted fact. I also don't know of any significant KP who has ever defended GOI. I have never accepted any contention of putting the blame on Pakistan lest it might be seen as an attempt to exonerate GOI. One of the commonly accepted myths by the supporters of Kashmiri nationalism, which is deliberately articulated by the Kashmiri separatists is that any KP group which vocally opposes their discourse is an agent of Indian home ministry. It can't be denied that any KP group that articulates the geopolitical aspirations of KP's unwittingly extends  support to Indian state by default. These groups are aware about this dilemma but go on playing the game for the sake of Indian nation. And therein lies the perceptional difference between the likes of you and ilk of me. We make a clear distinction between the state and the nation. I suspect your apathy towards the state influences your judgment on the nation.        
I hold Sarte in great esteem for being so profuse with his opinions many of which proved to be prophetic. But, I will not permit myself to conclude his Algeria opinion to be a rule with which to shape the future geography of world in general and Kashmir in particular. My assertion is based upon the totally dissimilar nature of the conflicts.  I am also not inclined to accept the concept of individual communities aspiring for being independent nations. It is disastrous preposition with utterly chaotic implication. But if ultimately we reach that situation then most of the people will like to cross the river once they reach the bridge. I find it amusing to try shaping your present geography in anticipation of something which we assume will happen in future. No body kills a new born because eventually death will knock at his doors.

I am also a no fan of American foreign policies but to blame them for rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Kashmir  is, perhaps, a weird suggestion. It is also a ploy to bail out the sinister designs of those fanatics without whom the world would have been a shade better place to live. 

I am sorry I will be in Jammu for next two days where I will have no access to internet as data services are not permitted on hand held devises there.  

Regards,

Kamal Hak
Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

-----Original Message-----
From: Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:06:18 
To: reader-list<reader-list at sarai.net>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled

I
"But I firmly refuse to exonerate both Tamil leadership in Sri Lanka
and KM leadership in Kashmir for leading the gullible masses on a path
of misery and suffering."

Dear Kamal ji
can i add Delhi leadership to ur above statment ?

Further, I also firmly beleive, that corrupt and insensitive
leadership in New Delhi has played a cruel but silent role in exodus
of KPs from kashmir. Further they repeatedly turn blind eye to fix the
noted killers in Kashmir. One glaring example is Bitta Karate. It is
the Govt of India which a different game plan , and you will only look
naive if you exonrate GOI at every debate which involves justice for
all those who suffered during these 20 years.  Quite a difficult task
for you.

I gave an example of Haryana to understand how every other community,
small or big, are inwardly waiting for a jsut freedom which is
sometimes take advante of faulty paper work and become explicitly
assertive and therefore more visible as we see in Kashmir.

I dont see anything wrong if communites build up a dream to imagine a
free country for themselves.  There are many examples like that even
in Europe, and belive me, it is a matter of time before they start
asking for their rights.

 Haryana got freedom from Punjab and they celebrate it. I dont think
you disapprove that. But your consolation is that they remain within
the Indian union. But who knows about future. Who dreamt the sudden
collapse of USSR. there are many examples in the world where boarders
keep on changing, what is so big about it.

I gave an example of Sartre with regard to French occupation of
Algeria. He was isolated by French intellgentia at that time, but
times proved him right.
If French had unwisely continued to occupy Algeria, no wonder that
sucide bomboers and stone pleters would have mushroomed there.

you have not touched the point when i said that how America is implict
in the the destruction of Bamiyan Buddha. That was to explain if
Kashmir and Afghanistan is under the grip of  Islamic fundamalists
forces , but who  is responsible ?

So,  you have exonerate many decent looking polititicians and
countries to fix responsiblites on the leadership of these troubled
areas.

love
is

















On 10/8/10, kamalhak at gmail.com <kamalhak at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Inder,
> Don't you think you are mixing the societal ambitions of communities with pan national aspirations of people whose perceptions are dictated by supposedly discriminatory policies of the state. You have introduced a new paradigm to whole debate by equating linguistic aspirations of Haryana with faith based discourse of Kashmiris. This could be interesting in presence of any genuine credence.  I am not aware of any mass scale exodus of Panjabi speaking people in the aftermath of the division of erstwhile state. To the contrary Kashmir has been witness to the worst displacement of people forced into exodus in anticipation of a totalitarian dispensation. Now please don't bring in Jagmohan into this.
>
> I don't approve of what Srilanka did in its northern parts. Perhaps, India could have managed the turmoil in Kashmir more sensibly. But I firmly refuse to exonerate both Tamil leadership in Sri Lanka and KM leadership in Kashmir for leading the gullible masses on a path of misery and suffering.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kamal Hak
> Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net
> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 00:34:32
> To: reader-list<reader-list at sarai.net>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled
>
> Dear Tara Prakash /all
>
> I really value ur comments, always.
> "Now it  is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi."
>
> I am John Nobody in Kashmir or outside Kashmir to give a verdict on
> Kashmir on any other issue, of which i am not directly a part. I draw
> inferences from day to day and events, and from a historicity that has
> confined it to a singularity which refuses to budge beyond that
> predictable position: the status quo.
>
> Strangely i see people of Kashmir building an opinion which is not
> musical to the ears of Govt of India or to those who rule them by
> default.  Today's comments  J&K  CM points to the fact that people are
> forcing their view point even on those who look very obstinate to
> understand the ground reality. FB is a little reflection of that
> reality.
>
> So, in that sense, you are right, har shaq par ulloo baitha hai (
> there is owl on every twig ), but that is how one can see it. What is
> other perspective. Please reflect upon.
>
> " Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists."   Am i then a rightist ?
>
> In my post to this thread, there is no such pointer which speaks about
> my leftists mind or otherwise.  Well, i reiterate the fact that if
> there is a move to replace SAS Geelani as the actual  sher-i-Kashmir
> instead of Sheikh Mohd Abdullah, it is because New Delhi failed to
> understand Sheikh who was openly against Jinnah and Pakistan Merger,
> and the entire valley was behind him. Whom do you blame for the
> Islamization of Kashmir. I see India directly, like i see America the
> actual force behind demolition of Bamiyan Bhdddhas. Sheikh was keen to
> implement Kashmiri language but had to link kashmir with Jammu and
> Ladakh, so Urdu as link language, The language i hate to listen in
> Kashmir spoken by Kashmiris, otherwise so musical in Delhi.
>
> Geelani has nothing to match qualities of Sheikh, but Home Minister
> Chidhambaram sahib is right now knocking his door for an appointment.
> on the other hand Sheikh was humiliated by a long long imprisonment,
> why ?  How do you interpret it. India is desperate for some resumtion
> of dialogue but it is the people who offset it now. SAS
> Geelani?Huriyat  can sell people of Kashmir for pea nuts, much badly
> than Sheikh did later,  and they know it in thier hearts, but what is
> the alternative?
>
> To say that there is no Kashmir issue will be saying there is a
> boarder between Pakistan and India, which is not true.
>
> Well, that is that, i come to another perspective. Imagine JP Sartre ,
> the known Leftist philosopher writer,as Indian and living in Delhi,
> and writing on Kashmir. My idea is that he would take a position
> similar to what he took with regard to French Occupation of Algeria.
> Times proved him right. He perhaps, never visited free Algeria,
> perhaps, because he would never be able to sleep with as many women as
> he did and would still be able to hold Simone De's  tender hand for a
> daily cup of coffee. So, it is not necessary where one lives, but what
> thinks of the other, that is important for me. Kashmiris need this to
> understand themselves and also will let us understand ourselves beyond
> dull nationalistic irrespective.
>
>
>  Dear Kamal ji
> I know there are huge majority of Muslims in Kashmir who really dont
> like Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, but everybody understands how
> India happened to occupy Kashmir. And tell me who does not like
> independence. Do you know there is a Haryana day which is a holiday in
> Haryana. It is the day when Haryana got freedom from Punjab. They were
> taken for a ride by assertive punjabis. Dont tell Himachalis what
> Punjabis do when it comes to exploitation. So, if tomorrow Hyayana
> gets a chance to become independent country and control its water and
> other resources, you will see a overwhelming support for it.  well,
> this is true about any country. Any ethnic population who are rich
> dont want to share their resources for nothing. and any other
> community within a country who feel opressed rebel against the
> core/ruler.
>
> The case of Sri Lanaka is a typical one here. Tamils were truly denied
> to represent themselves in a Sinhalese dominated country. They
> rebelled and where ruthlessness killed. but is that ethical?
>
> So, if India wants to continue killing rebel kashmiris, be it so.
>
> both you and me will only see it from a distance.
>
> love
> is
>
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:11 PM, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Inder.
> > "Now it  is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." IN other words
> > those who don't want it are not Kashmiris? The other day you said you had
> > problem with Gandhi's take on controling desire. Tagore ahd another problem
> > with Gandhi, he would very often sound less rational and more emotional. The
> > India came in to existence in 1947 could neither make Gandhi happy, nor it
> > would Tagore. What was true for India at that time is more true for the
> > would-be Somalia.
> >
> > Bas ek hi ulloo kaafi hai
> > Bardad gulistan karne ko
> > Har shaakh pe ulloo baitha hai
> > Anjam-e gulistan kya hoga?
> >
> > Those Kashmiris who don't want to be mislead by a hollow sweet nothing
> > called "azadi," may be in minority or probably in majority. In either case
> > they can't be ignored.
> >
> > There is used to be a revolutionary left that used to be in favor of a
> > globalization of the masses. People like you who are in support of drawing
> > another artificial line between suffering masses are doing a great service
> > to capitalist forces. Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists. Keep
> > practising with your stones, the skill will be useful when you will declare
> > a woman adulterous and stone her to death.
> >
> > Scaring children and parents who want to attend schools with the stones must
> > be giving good practise to the future soldiers of Kashmir and today's
> > misleaders of youth.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > To: "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled
> >
> >
> >> Dear Pawan ji
> >>
> >> Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my
> >> adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ),
> >> I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens
> >> to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones,
> >> and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think
> >> of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows
> >> where to draw the line.
> >>
> >> There will be no stones at the  IHC  tomorrow, let alone stone
> >> pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through
> >> images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it  is
> >> not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is
> >> actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous
> >> citizens need to unravel.
> >>
> >> There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her
> >> programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK
> >> come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be
> >> unfortunate.
> >>
> >> i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to
> >> Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana
> >> Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its
> >> why ?
> >>
> >> You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and
> >> socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in
> >> essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all
> >> the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from
> >> memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if
> >> KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power
> >> since 1947.
> >>
> >> Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is
> >> talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People
> >> and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the
> >> Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in
> >> the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the
> >> table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray
> >> democratically.
> >>
> >> Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so.
> >>
> >> But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were
> >> always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process
> >> of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live
> >> with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly.
> >>
> >> with love
> >> inder salim
> >>
> >>
> >> Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures
> >> it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/7/10, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Shuddha ,
> >>>
> >>> Endanger ! Did you say so ? What made you think so . Perhaps the same
> >>> mind who justifies stone pelting.
> >>>
> >>> Why cant it be , as i thought , the political gameplan behind this show ?
> >>>
> >>> I am sorry , you have a very bad understanding of words , humanity and
> >>> history . And it is showing off .
> >>>
> >>> Be blessed ......
> >>>
> >>> Hum Kya Chahteeeeeeeeee .........AaaaahJaaaaahDeeeeeeeeh
> >>>
> >>> Pawan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
> >>> > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows
> >>> > what will happen at the gathering"
> >>> >
> >>> > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger
> >>> > this gathering?
> >>> >
> >>> > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo?
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho....
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >>> Dear .......,
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by
> >>> >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with
> >>> >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its
> >>> >>> inhabitants,
> >>> >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of
> >>> >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through
> >>> >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the
> >>> >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the
> >>> >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get
> >>> >>> enlightened
> >>> >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the
> >>> >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and
> >>> >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have
> >>> >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have
> >>> >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be
> >>> >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the
> >>> >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This
> >>> >>> will be thrown open to the audience later.
> >>> >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH
> >>> >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months,
> >>> >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to
> >>> >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’,
> >>> >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very
> >>> >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual,
> >>> >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more
> >>> >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about
> >>> >>> depth of
> >>> >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so
> >>> >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition
> >>> >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict,
> >>> >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing
> >>> >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the
> >>> >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as
> >>> >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans.
> >>> >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as
> >>> >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social
> >>> >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art
> >>> >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches.
> >>> >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m
> >>> >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road.
> >>> >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards.  Speakers are Seema
> >>> >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam
> >>> >>> Navlakha.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us .
> >>> >>> Thanking you,
> >>> >>> Warm Regards,
> >>> >>> Kalpana tikku.
> >>> >>> _________________________________________
> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> >>> subscribe
> >>> >>> in the subject header.
> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >> _________________________________________
> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >
> >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> >>> > Raqs Media Collective
> >>> > shuddha at sarai.net
> >>> > www.sarai.net
> >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>


-- 

http://indersalim.livejournal.com
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>