[Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in Kashmir

[anupam chakravartty]

Dear We Wee/ Dhatri/Sriniwas,

If you have more such convoluted arguments here to offer, please send them
at one go. I have problems in understanding you. The other day you ask me
whether i am some kind of an author/critic/writer? Today you are saying:
"Critiques always comment about the actions or inactions. That is why
views/opinions/suggestions/advises are required not just from critiques but
from everybody."

What shall I make of these statements?

Anupam

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:59 PM, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> Anupam,
>
>      Its not all about individual perceptions. The government can't teach
> the discipline but public should be responsible. The government duty is to
> protect its people and the territory.  Critiques always comment about the
> actions or inactions. That is why views/opinions/suggestions/advises are
> required not just from critiques but from everybody.
>
> Regards,
> Srinivas.
>
> --- On Sun, 9/19/10, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement
> on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
> To: "we wi" <dhatr1i at yahoo.com>, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 4:46 PM
>
>
> Please send me your address Dhatri. From today onwards, I feel that you are
> consistently violating my right to existence, therefore, I, with some powers
> in my hand and certain loopholes in the constitution, will put a policeman
> in front of your house. I will tell the whole world that it is for your
> safety and security, whereas the policemen would be asked to keep a tight
> vigil on you. Moreover, the policemen is also given a free hand to pick up
> anyone and shoot anyone.
>
> The goal of the policeman:
>
> 1. ensure safety and security by all means, even if there are large number
> of persons asking too many questions and not accepting the authority of the
> gun.
>
> 2. to discipline people, alter their routines, to make sure no one is left
> to question the presence of the policemen and those who control them.
>
> 3. perpetuate the sense of emergency, so that those who control over the
> policemen, could routinely ask for aid in the name of the law and order.
>
> how do you perceive this situation?
>
> thanks Anupam
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 4:32 PM, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Anupam,
>
>      I don't know what position that Bipin trivedi hold but Bipin trivedi
> is correct.  There is no issue in Kashmir unless we make it as an issue. The
> freedom of speech is equal to all  the citizens of INDIA.  The control
> should come from homes, villages, towns, districts, cities, metros and
> states. As the time has changed the constitution should be amended
> accordingly and so as the polity with no powers to states like the one J&K
> misusing.  It can't be a model to others towards division. No comparisons
> but J&K as a
> WHOLE(including occupied territory with people)  shall be brought under
> common rule like any
>  other state in India. Since it is our problem hence
> we are the solution makers.
>
> Regards,
> Dhatri.
>
> --- On Sun, 9/19/10, anupampan> chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement
> on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
> To: "Bipin Trivedi" <aliens at dataone.in>, "sarai list" <
> reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 12:48 PM
>
>
>
>
> Bipin Trivedi
>
> Amnesty International may be flawed in its report, could you explain your
> comments on the collective destinies of lakhs of people ("But after
> achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of Kashmir realizes that how
> the bitter truth is. In that case after few years of azadi, I am sure
> Kashmiri people will start reverse agitation and urge India to free from
> separatist. They will agitate to join fully with Indian continent and if it
> happens, what will separatists do? I am sure it will going to happen if
> azadi is given to Kashmiri.")? It is very clear that you care for the
> territoriality of Indian state rather than its people and their
> aspirations.
> And a question to you, in the present times, having listened to all those
> who are asking for freedom, those who say we will 'safeguard' your freedom,
> those whose voices have never been heard but it is only now that after so
> many years that have had to come out on the streets to negotiate their own
> freedoms, what should be agenda of the state trying to negotiate such
> conflicts? should the preservation of territoriality of the state be on the
> agenda or consider the aspirations?
>
> is territoriality an important aspect of the present times? no please do
> not
> give me a lecture on security and safety of the state and its people,
> things
> about Islamic fundamentalism. we have had our share of prison breaks, of
> utterly dissatisfied people (living very much under the state's security
> perimeter) killing their neighbours in the most cold blooded manner. the
> reasons have been the same: he has a bigger car than mine. i think the idea
> of territoriality of the state arises from such a position.
>
> Moreover, why this comparison: "Where was Amnesty International when US
> attacked Iraq for their own interest of capturing Oil fields?" are you
> talking about kashmir or iraq? if you can make such comparisons, where are
> you when half of your nuclear facilities are going to be monitored by the
> Americans, post the deal? is it not a question of what you call "internal
> matter"? My idea here was not start another debate on nuclear deal but a
> message to people, including commentators here to not try and hijack the
> issue of Kashmir by citing various comparisons with situations that are
> remotely connected to the issue of Kashmir. As a witness to the debate
> about
> Kashmir, the resolution lies in understanding the uniqueness of this issue,
> not demonstrating your knowledge about similar issues. In terms of content,
> it may sound very exotic, shows well informed you are but logically flawed.
> I am convinced that territoriality of an already sovereign state is not the
> correct means to analyse the aspirations of a certain group of persons.
> Even
> if we say that they might have been misled, when you are in the side of the
> state, you cannot afford to be in a position to assert your own sovereignty
> over these people who do not feel the same way. You will be referred to as
> a
> tyrant, or a bully. I am sorry but I am also an Indian, and I cannot see
> the
> foundations on which this state was formed being violated by a few tyrants,
> who legitimately or illegitimately call themselves as rulers. These are
> very
> personal observations from what I have read or seen or discussed in last
> one
> and a half months with some of my friends, who held similar positions like
> yours Bipin.
>
> Thanks
> Anupam
>
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>
> > Where was Amnesty International when US attacked Iraq for their own
> > interest of capturing Oil fields? Don't interfere in Indian internal
> matter
> > and don't advise us anything. We will handle it. How to handle, whether
> to
> > remove AFSPA or not, we will decide. So Amnesty, mind your own business
> and
> > do not interfere.
> >
> > When Protesters try to disturbed the peace, what will the forces do? They
> > are obeying their duty to restore the peace and in that whoever comes in
> > between has to pay the penalty. When no human rights applicable to
> > protesters, terrorists than why to armed forces?
> >
> > Today news was aired that NC and PDP wants yet more independent power in
> > Kashmir. Is it the solution and the things will solve? Not at all.
> Crooked
> > separatist like Geelani, Miwaiz, Yasin never accept anything than total
> > freedom. Since they are staying in India physically but by heart they are
> > Pakistani and Pakistan never let live them other than Kashmir freedom.
> >
> > What have separatists plan after getting freedom. Kashmir is totally
> > depending on tourism and have they thought that after Kashmir becoming
> > separate state, tourism will effect heavily. Kashmir as a separate state
> > will bankrupt financially which you could not understand since at present
> > India spent heavily for Kashmir. So after freedom, if they think that Pak
> > will finance than they are mistaken, since Pak is already bagging from
> US,
> > how can they help? So, like Pak you have to become bagger from US.
> >
> > For this movement, you must have taken granted the support of Jammu
> people
> > than you are mistaken. Since, I am sure Jammu people will definitely
> prefer
> > to stay with India. So, first you have to agree for the division of state
> > and then go ahead with your freedom movement restricted to valley only.
> >
> > But after achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of Kashmir
> realizes
> > that how the bitter truth is. In that case after few years of azadi, I am
> > sure Kashmiri people will start reverse agitation and urge India to free
> > from separatist. They will agitate to join fully with Indian continent
> and
> > if it happens, what will separatists do? I am sure it will going to
> happen
> > if azadi is given to Kashmiri.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bipin Trivedi
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:
> reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]
> > On Behalf Of Nagraj Adve
> > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 8:26 PM
> > To: Sarai; Free Binayak Sen; ecological-democracy at lists.riseup.net
> > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on
> > Rising Deaths in Kashmir
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: gautam navlakha <gnavlakha at gmail.com>
> > Date: 18 September 2010 20:24
> > Subject: [pudr] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising
> > Deaths in Kashmir
> > To: activist <activist at pudr.org>, asish gupta <asishroop at gmail.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Khurram Parvez <khurramparvez at yahoo.com>
> > Date: Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM
> > Subject: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in
> > Kashmir
> > To: kparvez at kashmirprocess.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On *Fri, 9/17/10, iteam at amnesty.org <iteam at amnesty.org>* wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: iteam at amnesty.org <iteam at amnesty.org>
> > Subject: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in
> Kashmir
> > To: iteam at amnesty.org
> > Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 10:31 AM
> >
> > Dear friends
> >
> > Please find below a public statement about the on-going violence in
> Kashmir
> >
> > Best regards,
> > South Asia Team
> > Amnesty International
> > International Secretariat
> > 1 Easton Street
> > London WC1X ODW
> > United Kingdom
> > Tel  +44 (0) 20 7413 5500  +44 (0) 20 7413 5500
> > Fax +44 (0) 20 7956 1157
> >
> > http://www.amnesty.org
> > http://www.asiapacific.amnesty.org
> >
> > *AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL* *
> > PUBLIC STATEMENT*
> >
> > AI: Index: ASA20/027/2010
> >
> > 17 September 2010
> >
> > *
> > India: Urgent need for Government to act as death toll rises in Kashmir*
> >
> > With an increasing death toll in protests in Kashmir, Amnesty
> International
> > calls on the Indian authorities to take urgent steps to ensure respect
> for
> > the right to life and to investigate past killings of demonstrators by
> > police.
> >
> > With two more protestors shot dead today, Amnesty International urges the
> > Indian government to immediately instruct the security forces not to use
> > firearms against demonstrators,   Security forces should use the minimum
> > force necessary to defend themselves or others against an imminent threat
> > of
> > death or serious injury. They should not employ intentional lethal use of
> > firearms except where such use is strictly unavoidable in order to
> protect
> > life.
> >
> > Ninety-six people have been killed since June when protests broke out in
> > Jammu and Kashmir after the killings of three young men, reportedly by
> the
> > security forces, in March.  The vast majority of these killings have been
> > at
> > the hands of police and paramilitary forces.
> >
> > An inquiry ordered by the authorities into 11 of the deaths by shooting
> in
> > July has failed to make headway.  Amnesty International renews its call
> to
> > the government to initiate an independent, impartial and thorough
> > investigation into all the killings.  Members of the security forces
> > responsible for excessive use of force in demonstrations should be
> brought
> > to justice.
> >
> > In the last week alone, at least 23 people were killed and 80 others
> > injured
> > in shootings by the state police and the Central Reserve Police Force
> > (CRPF)
> > paramilitary personnel. Protestors defied curfew regulations, held
> > demonstrations and often clashed with the security personnel.
> >
> > Protests in several places turned violent as demonstrators hurled stones
> at
> > the security forces in the last week. Reports about threats to burn the
> > Quran in the United States increased tensions.  Demonstrators attacked
> two
> > Christian schools and a hospital, burning one of the schools.
> >
> > At the same time human rights activists in Srinagar told Amnesty
> > International that on a number of occasions the security forces shot
> > protestors who were throwing stones at them.
> >
> > A number of towns in the Kashmir valley including Srinagar have been
> under
> > 24 hour curfew for the last five days.
> >
> > Information about these events has been restricted as a result of strict
> > enforcement of the curfew regulations. Journalists have informed Amnesty
> > International that, despite possessing curfew passes issued by the
> > authorities, they have been prevented by the police and the paramilitary
> > personnel from leaving their homes. With journalists unable to report on
> > the
> > situation, a number of regional television stations and newspapers have
> > suspended their work.
> >
> > Any restrictions on the rights to freedom of movement or freedom of
> > expression imposed for the protection of public order should only be such
> > as
> > are necessary and proportionate for that purpose and should be consistent
> > with the state’s other human rights obligations. In view of the key role
> of
> > journalists in facilitating exercise the right to freedom of expression,
> > which includes the right to receive information.  Amnesty International
> > calls on the Indian authorities to ensure that journalists can obtain
> > curfew
> > passes and are not harassed or otherwise obstructed while carrying out
> > their
> > professional functions of reporting and imparting information on issues
> of
> > public concern.
> >
> > More public protests have been announced for 21 September by the All
> Party
> > Hurriyat Conference (APHC), one of the largest political formations in
> > Jammu
> > and Kashmir.   This underlines the urgency for  the Indian authorities to
> > instruct the security forces not to use lethal force when dealing with
> > demonstrations.
> >
> > The demonstrations began in late May over the reported extrajudicial
> > execution of three young men by the Army at Machil in Baramulla district.
> > Protests increased after 17-year old Tufail Mattoo was killed by security
> > forces in Srinagar during a demonstration on 11 June. They have
> intensified
> > during repeated cycles of protests and further killings of demonstrators
> by
> > security forces.
> >
> > The demonstrators have raised various concerns about the lack of
> > accountability of the security forces; the withdrawal of Armed Forces
> > (Jammu
> > and Kashmir) Special Powers Act (AFSPA) 1958; the removal of Army camps –
> > along with an underlying demand of independence for Kashmir.
> >
> > The AFSPA, which gives special powers of immunity to the security forces,
> > has been in force in parts of Jammu and Kashmir since 1990. The Central
> > Government is currently debating the withdrawal of the AFSPA from a few
> of
> > its districts.
> >
> > One of the key demands of the state authorities and protesting
> > organizations, namely the withdrawal of the AFSPA, does not appear to
> > figure
> > in the agenda of the all-party team from Delhi scheduled to visit
> Srinagar
> > on 20 September.
> >
> > Under the AFSPA, soldiers are protected from any legal proceedings unless
> > specifically sanctioned by the Central Government. This rarely happens in
> > practice, allowing armed forces personnel to violate human rights with
> > impunity.
> >
> > Ends/
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Working to protect human rights worldwide
> >
> > DISCLAIMER
> >
> > This email has been sent by Amnesty International Limited (a company
> > registered in England and Wales limited by guarantee, number 01606776
> with
> > registered office at 1 Easton St, London WC1X 0DW). Internet
> communications
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> > responsibility for the contents of this message. If you are not the
> > intended
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> > Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
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> >
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