[Reader-list] Kashmiri scessionist movement has pan Islamic roots
Inder Salim
indersalim at gmail.com
Sat Sep 25 18:47:55 IST 2010
Dear Lalit
well, you repeat
you see every body in Kashmir is Anti-Indian,
including those who have political alliances
PDP and NC are two who use congress and vice versa
even BJP is happy to have a political link with them.
so what is your politics, if you are giving clean chit to GOI at
every debate then we have a very abstract situation,
at one level you want every body Indian in Kashmir, and if those who
unfurl the tricolour there, too are not trustworthy, then who is
there, and to whom do you intend to speak
and those who ( GOI) speak to them are unlikely to grant you a
isolated space ( panun Kashmir ). Who is the third agency whom you
will approach.
Only UNO
my question about restoring the cultural link between the two is almost lost,
unfortunately we have lot of people ( both KP and KM) who dont want to
touch anything about culture, just naked politics, which is like male
chauvinism at its best.
if you remember my performance at Arpana Gallery, which you happened
to becasue of that
na ches be tati ne yati
http://indersalim.livejournal.com/56394.html
my best of hugs
love
is
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Lalit Ambardar
<lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Inder,
>
>
>
> I would have appreciated if you had just listed out ‘lies’ from my ‘long’
> reply as also the ‘points’ that you think you had raised & got ignored. I
> have only attempted to draw a picture in response to your long list of
> queries & it did require ‘detailing’ that you have described as ‘not asked
> for’. You can choose to ignore the facts that you wouldn’t like to know.
>
>
>
> I would prefer not to digress from this interesting dialogue by letting
> attention deflect to individuals like Madhu Kishwar whose ‘concern’ for
> Kashmiris seems to be limited to her strong support for PDP & its ‘self
> rule’. That also brings me to your reference to Mr. Beg’s supposed disgust
> at “Nehru memorial” over GOI’s ‘no action’ against the ‘butcher of Kashmir
> Pandits’.
>
> Dear, it has become a ritual to make a cursory reference to the atrocities
> committed on Kashmiri Hindu Pandits to fool the ‘secular’ audiences. What
> Mr. Beg did not say is more interesting though it bothers none, that this
> ‘butcher of Kashmir Pandits’ was allowed a public reception with traditional
> ‘wanwoon’ & ‘shirin’ on his release during the period when his PDP was in
> power & Mr. Beg was the Deputy Chief Minister of the state. Again,
> interestingly, Mr. Beg did not comment on the death & destruction that JKLF
> terror group brought on the people of Kashmir—he couldn’t have dared do that
> in the presence of the terror commander of the terror group at the venue.
>
> No, I did not remain mum, it is only that my voice got lost in the ‘let us
> speak the language of love’ noise. It is a strange phenomenon that the media
> & the civil society in general get so unnerved on hearing the woes of
> Kashmiri Pandits. Kashmiri Pandits were repeatedly interrupted to prevent
> them speak about the atrocities committed against them. I was nearly forced
> in to silence in the first half of the seminar (hope you remember what I
> said then…that should take care of your query about my opinion about Mufti
> Sayad & his PDP…..who has been the Home Minister of India & is now hoping to
> see Pakistani flag hoisted over the secretariat in Srinagar as per his ‘self
> rule’ that envisages joint sovereignty over Kashmir….).By the way that was
> the mother of all seminars. It was a brazen attempt to mobilise Muslims of
> the whole of J&K state on political lines on one platform.
>
>
>
> Yes, Kashmir has suffered on account of the ‘great game’. It still is, only
> the pan- Islamic fervour dictates the agenda now & Kashmiri masses are being
> used as canon fodder ironically at the hands of their ‘own’.
>
>
>
> Justifying Sheikh Abdullah’s demand for independent nationhood for Jammu &
> Kashmir that legally acceded to India would amount to negation of the
> independence of India, formation of the Union of India as well as the very
> creation of Pakistan. Please revisit historical records…..Lahore Treaty etc.
> Reversal of history will lead to chaos all over the world…many countries
> will actually loose their legitimacy.
>
>
>
> Let us not obfuscate the issue by bringing in Nepal & Bhutan.
>
>
>
> In any case Please remember Sheikh Abdullah’s call ‘hamlawar khabardar, ham
> kashmiri hain tayyar’ against the Pakistani marauders was reciprocated by
> equal response from all Kashmiris across faiths. And there were many more
> unsung heroes like Maqbool Sherwani who saved Kashmir from falling to
> Islamic Pakistan then.
>
>
>
> It is the aspiration for an independent ‘Sheikhdom’ that has lead to Kashmir
> to present crisis. Same Sheikh Abdullah reconciled latter & went in for a
> pact with Indra Gandhi & the same Kashmiris lit bonfires across Kashmir to
> celebrate the accord.
>
>
>
> One of the most important roads in the heart of New Delhi is named after
> Aurangzeb, who is detested by most Indians, therefore let us not get in to
> this politics. A Kashmiri Muslim like any other Indian has every right &
> every opportunity to occupy any position in this country.
>
>
>
> Your continued attempts to invent so called ‘reasons’ to justify ethnic
> cleansing of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits smack of some deep rooted prejudice
> & hatred against the Kashmiri Pandits. Your contention that Kashmiri
> Pandits were happy with good jobs in Delhi is malicious & motivated. What
> about Kashmiri Muslims who have flourishing businesses in Delhi & across
> India? The fact remains that Kashmir Pandits stayed put in Kashmir till
> their ethnic cleansing in 1989-90.In any case, the miniscule minority spread
> over the whole of the valley even in ones & twos in certain
> villages/mohallas never mattered in electoral terms .You won’t deny that it
> is the Kashmiri Muslims who control politics in not only in Kashmir but in
> Jammu too. Why pick on poor Kashmiri Pandits & condemn them if they ever
> made a choice? Many known Hindu Pandit politicians were part of NC anyway.
> You are wrong in your premise that Kashmiri Pandits ought to have
> surrendered their liberty & dignity to the Kashmiri Muslim majority.
>
>
>
> Please do not undermine human feelings of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits. All of us
> cherish the pleasant memories of the past. Most of us still maintain ties
> with our erstwhile neighbours, college/ school mates. But we do not use our
> sentiments for ‘propaganda’ purposes. There are many amongst us who hold no
> less affection than Inder Salim for the Kashmiri Muslims but it will be
> very naïve on your part to expect us to have any regard for the proponents
> of ‘azadi- bara-e-Islam’ & their cohorts responsible for bringing death &
> destruction to ‘us’- the Kashmiris. There are scars that could heal possibly
> once we return back to the land of our ancestors, on our political terms.
>
>
>
> Rgds
>
> LA
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 00:59:46 +0530
>> From: indersalim at gmail.com
>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri scessionist movement has pan Islamic
>> roots
>>
>> Well dear Lalit
>> you ignored many points which i raised, and added which i didnt
>>
>> anyways, it interest me a lot.because on both sides lies accumulate
>> and what we have is a huge written volume of words which does not help
>> either of the parties.
>>
>> However, the reality on the ground is that Kashmir is burning, and
>> many innocent youths died, some for throwing stones, some not for
>> pelting even. There is a huge number of protest against this excessive
>> police force, and one of them respected Madhu Kishwar, and i dont
>> think you will label her also anti democracy.
>>
>> Kashmir issue is not Indian game alone, it is an international game,
>> in which kashmiris are only paying with their lives, first it was
>> Kashmiri pandits then kashmiri muslims, then sikhs, then muslims....
>> you will not deny this fact, right.
>>
>> The game was started by India itself. you are constantly talking about
>> Azadi bare islam ( whatever that means ) was not the the actual
>> intention of Sheikh Mohd Abdullah. He was a very good muslim who named
>> his son Farooq ( Farooq the Great, was the most powerful of the four
>> Rashidun Caliphs ) but he welcomed Jinnah with a garland of shoes.
>>
>> Sheikh was right in demanding a separate nation for Jammu and
>> Kashmir. Here, i think of Nepal or Bhutan which were not parts Indian
>> union under British Rule, by your logic too, should have been annexed
>> to India , but that did not happen, it did happen in kashmir because
>> Sheikh sincerely approached Nehru to support.
>>
>> The rest is history. Sheikh was humiliated by India, and then by his
>> own people. What a tragic hero, who will be judged by history more by
>> his role as CM rather than his true being. He protected Hindus, where
>> both Gandhi and Jinnah failed. He had a vision which none had that
>> time. What happened to that vision. Have you ever heard Sheikh being
>> discussed here in Delhi. Is there a single road in his name. Even a
>> petty politican called Rajesh pilot has. India has always insulted the
>> sensibility of kashmirs. KPs on the other hand were content with good
>> job in Delhi after 1947.
>>
>> Kashmiri Pandits were loyal subject of the King Hari singh, and when
>> that game ended they found orphaned, KPs should have been quick to
>> embrace the vision of Sheikh but instead thought of Congress in Delhi,
>>
>> So,. it turned out that when Pakistan decided to repeat partition in
>> kashmir, there was no Sheikh this time, no one to give a stren warning
>> like he did in 47. and they had to move out. You should remember that
>> when Sheikh punished Jamat-islami villages in kashmir after Zulikar
>> Bhutto's hanging. But KPs never understood Sheikh, instead they always
>> voted the corrupt cograesswala in the valley. The same Mufti syed who
>> instigated communal violence in 1986. what is your take on that ? He
>> was indian then, and you still have nothing against him, in comparison
>> to SAS Geelani, that is how KPs think.
>>
>> it was the same congress and wooden headed Farooq whose lust for the
>> power ousted KPs from the valley. On the contratry, it was Sr. PDP
>> leader mr. Beg at Nehru memorial when he pointed out why Govt of India
>> has never initiated action against Bitte Karate, why were you mum
>> there ? GoI has different priorities, as i already pointed out, but
>> you ignore them, even when you know that they were always against you
>> in the valley, and even now.
>>
>> No wonder that religious voices are more louder in kashmir, since
>> Indian policy makers thought it fitting to humiliate the secular
>> sheikh and others of such nature.
>>
>> Well, you are free to write another long letter, in response to this,
>> perhaps, aimed to highlight that how all the world muslims are united
>> against Kafirs in the valley, but it is not so.
>>
>> i have faith in the some earlier bonds, much earlier than our recent
>> beliefs artificially planted in us.
>>
>> with love
>> is
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:56 PM, Lalit Ambardar
>> <lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > Dear Inder,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I can understand this ‘Jagmohan’ fixation with the post 1989-90 Kashmir
>> > watchers whose opinion seems to be more influenced by the separatists’
>> > propaganda than the ground realities that existed then in the valley.
>> >
>> > I appreciate your candid admission that the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri
>> > Hindu Pandits was indeed planned by the Kashmiri pan Islamists & I think
>> > this should enlighten & correct the perceptions of many on this forum
>> > who
>> > regard the propaganda that emanates from the Kashmiri Islamists’
>> > quarters as
>> > Gospel truth.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > About the failure of the state to protect the hapless minority of
>> > Kashmiri
>> > Hindu Pandits against the jihadists onslaught less said the better. I
>> > don’t
>> > know if you are aware Kashmiri Pandits have been demanding a commission
>> > to
>> > enquire in to the circumstances that lead to their mass exodus. The
>> > Govt.
>> > instead appointed BG Varghese to report on the state of temples left
>> > behind
>> > in the valley who obviously produced a document that said all was well
>> > even
>> > while the traumatised Kshmiri Pandit refugees were struggling for basic
>> > shelter in Jammu, Delhi & other places.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If you recall, when Farooq Abdullah resigned abdicating his
>> > responsibilities & leaving the Kashmiri masses at the mercy of AK47
>> > wielding
>> > Kashmiri jihadists who paraded wearing symbolic shrouds & holy
>> > inscription
>> > laden head bands openly in the streets of Kashmir, the police was left
>> > demoralised & was seen even saluting the jihadi marauders . Selectively
>> > killing of Kashmir Pandits had become order of the day. Do you really
>> > believe that in an anarchic situation that prevailed then, the Governor
>> > could have mobilised so much logistics across the length & breadth of
>> > Kashmir valley in such a hostile environment to facilitate exodus of
>> > Pandits.
>> >
>> > Dear Inder, it is not easy to leave your home & hearth just because some
>> > one
>> > wants you to do that.
>> >
>> > I mentioned in the last mail that Kashmir could witness more of death &
>> > destruction in coming days (it is not so difficult to guess that from
>> > the
>> > pattern of all jihadi movements worldwide & in our neighbourhood in
>> > particular) & that will lead to exodus, this time possibly of Kashmir
>> > Muslims (as the reports suggest the process has already begun) & sure
>> > you
>> > will still hold someone else responsible & not the proponents of ‘azadi-
>> > bara –e- Islam’.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > About the Kashmiri Muslims in general I have already expressed my
>> > opinion in
>> > my last post.
>> >
>> > And about preservation of Kashmir culture-that we are trying our best
>> > even
>> > in exile & will once back home on our political agenda, I assure you our
>> > culture –Kashmiri culture which has been the target of Islamists will
>> > flourish & you will feel proud.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > You had mentioned that when ‘Nizame Mustafa in Kashmir’ slogans were
>> > raised
>> > at Jantar Mantar, a ‘Bindi’ supporting sympathiser of the separatists
>> > was
>> > ‘taken aback’ & it was only following your goading that she calmed down
>> > &
>> > stayed on. I wish I could know her ‘reaction’ if she were to learn about
>> > the
>> > trauma that Kashmiri Hindu Pandit women who had in any case stopped
>> > wearing
>> > the ‘bindi’ for the fear of backlash were subjected to when even more
>> > dreadful slogans like ‘we want Pakistan, along with the Hindu Pandit
>> > women &
>> > without the Pandit men folk’ blurted from the loudspeakers of holy
>> > mosques
>> > in Kashmir. I wish some one would have told her how Kashmiri Pandit
>> > women
>> > were raped & then cut on the saw machines. I wish some one would have
>> > told
>> > her how BK Ganjoo was riddled with automatic gun fire right in front of
>> > his
>> > wife, inside a rice drum wherein he had concealed himself (in the
>> > attic of
>> > his house) & how the jihadists told her to live on to cry for her dead
>> > husband when she begged to be killed too along with her two
>> > daughters……..I
>> > don’t know if this lady sympathiser of separatists would have waited for
>> > a
>> > ‘curfew pass’ from the Governor to flee for her safety had she been
>> > amidst
>> > the mayhem in Kashmir then.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Nit picking on Governor’s role can go on. We used to have a tradition in
>> > Kashmir that meat shops did not generally open on Tuesdays. But
>> > radicalisation took a heavy toll on Kashmiriyat & there was an even
>> > attempt
>> > to slaughter a cow on Ashtami in Anantnag when the seeds of
>> > indoctrination
>> > were being sown across Kashmir.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Your argument that since elections were ‘rigged’, hence Kashmiri Pandits
>> > were targeted suggesting that Kashmiri Pandits deserved to be targeted
>> > sounds preposterous. I have no reason to doubt your understanding of
>> > events
>> > but if this is the impression that you have gathered from your ‘friends’
>> > in
>> > Kashmir, it only strengthens the point that Kashmir Hindus fell prey to
>> > a
>> > diabolic plan to cleanse the valley of Hindu Pandits. It reminds of the
>> > hate
>> > campaign against the Jews before holocaust.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Your seemingly ‘benign’ act of throwing a paper ball towards the
>> > parliament of India ( as per your account) in the presence of the
>> > parliament
>> > attack accused ,(now out only on technical grounds) & those who in any
>> > case do not believe in democracy certainly amounts to undermining of
>> > democracy.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Why should you be so concerned d about the names being given to the
>> > patriarch of ‘azadi- bara- e -Islam who has the audacity to justify
>> > martyrdom of common Kashmiris quoting holy verses; who instigates in the
>> > name of religion, children of others (not his own, yes) to die for a
>> > cause
>> > that they don’t understand; who patronises antichrists who are not only
>> > religious bigots but racists too… “Kala kuta…. thu thu”…. “Gai tumhari
>> > mata
>> > hai, hum usko khata hai”……. are some of the racist slogans in vogue to
>> > provoke the security personnel. By the way many Kashmiri
>> >
>> > Muslims fed up with the ‘azadi’ seekers back home prefer to call him
>> > ‘budae’ with no reverence, of course.
>> >
>> > Rgds
>> >
>> > LA
>> >
>> >
>> >> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:23:58 +0530
>> >> From: indersalim at gmail.com
>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri scessionist movement has pan
>> >> Islamic
>> >> roots
>> >>
>> >> Thanks dear Lalit
>> >>
>> >> i repeat:
>> >> about KP migration
>> >> Why Govt of India failed to notice that KP are under attack. from
>> >> reliable sources i am saying it that the idea of KP to be pushed out
>> >> of valley was discussed by pro-pak militants in early 88-89, and was
>> >> duly conveyed to intelligence in Delhi. They never acted, which makes
>> >> them a party to their agenda of KP migration. May be Govt of India
>> >> thought that migration of KP is in the interest of India. i dont whom,
>> >> or what... you can not convince me at this point....why it was
>> >> allowed to happen.. Jagmohan who is a known RSS man in Delhi was
>> >> appointed to ensure that... i dont know why he was there in the first
>> >> place.... imposing ban on killing goats on ashtamis i Kashmir was
>> >> something which makes me laugh, but he is not stupid, may be he was
>> >> briefed to issue an order like that...
>> >>
>> >> about Govt role
>> >> KP migration also happened because there was open rigging by
>> >> NC-Congress in pre 90 elections? it was fraud committed by Rajiv
>> >> Gandhi and Farooq Abdullah. I dont know in which sense they are
>> >> friends of India. and why they denied a chance to MUF to rule the
>> >> state is beyond my comprehension., if you are ready to forgive them,
>> >> you can do..but there are many who are not read for that gift to
>> >> them... since they are robbers, with clean hands..
>> >>
>> >> about my action at Jantar Mantar:
>> >> you will not believe, how ugly it was to see the KP brothers saying
>> >> Geelani Hoon hai hai. etc.......in opposition to the protest organized
>> >> by Kalpana Tickoo.
>> >> My little action on the other hand was not to boost the stone pelting,
>> >> but actually transformed the stone into paper, which was creative,
>> >> which was about pushing non-violent forms of protest in the valley,
>> >> unlike saying Geelini Hoon, which is nothing but provoking the stone
>> >> pelters to pick up the Gun. May be you see it differently, i have
>> >> very little to say about RSS minded politics of RIK. Do you think
>> >> that recent killings in Kashmir were avoidable? do you blame UA for
>> >> his role in shopian and then these killings..i see he is most hated
>> >> man in the valley right now.... and he must have resigned... but Rahul
>> >> Baba has given him the green signal.... so we have a situation similar
>> >> to 1989... History repeats, first as tragedy then as farce..., but
>> >> remember farce is more tragic than ....-
>> >>
>> >> about exodus
>> >>
>> >> KP have given the impression that they are quite happy outside
>> >> Kashmir, and so what is the fuss.... you dont want any cultural
>> >> restoration in valley, and you dismiss the entire valley as
>> >> pro-pakistani pro geelani and anti -KP minded, then it is hopeless to
>> >> think about return... how can you you live in a society which is
>> >> against your very presence, so what is this noise of dream to return.
>> >> ( idea of Panun Kashmir suits Indian agenda is not in any way serving
>> >> the basic interest of KPs ) the best thing for KP was to discover
>> >> right links in the valley, there are thousands who love us there, who
>> >> love temples, who love our festivals, but KPs are only interested in
>> >> politics which is unfortunately not functional. Govt of India does not
>> >> need you, Home minister needs the smile of Geelani sahib, not yours,
>> >> Your bond with nation is well recognized...so
>> >>
>> >> abut my waste of time: yes i dont have any material gain from writing
>> >> all this, i want some saner sound to see the reason... sentimentality
>> >> is not serving any good to KP community.
>> >> but it is your choice.... Govt of India has certainly different
>> >> priorities, you can criticize them, but will they listen to you... to
>> >> dismiss the entire valley against music, poetry, art, theatre is quite
>> >> not right.... i go there, and the fact is there is a deeper urge to
>> >> start all over again...and it is here KP can join the idea...but.....
>> >>
>> >> well, i think you are quite involved with the political thinking of
>> >> Kashmir
>> >> but i feel we should give space to some music ( creativity ) to speak
>> >> also
>> >>
>> >> what do you think
>> >>
>> >> love
>> >> is
>> >>
>> >> ..
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Lalit Ambardar
>> >> <lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Dear Inder,
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I am glad that you unlike many others on this forum who continue to
>> >> > wear
>> >> > wool over their eyes & refuse to acknowledge that the Kashmiri
>> >> > secessionist
>> >> > movement is indeed pan Islamism driven & that Kashmiri Hindu Pandits
>> >> > were
>> >> > indeed subjected to a systematic ethnic cleansing in the valley, have
>> >> > at
>> >> > least dared to respond to the ‘post’ even if not in outright
>> >> > agreement.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > It is appreciable that you at least admit that Kashmiri Hindu Pandits
>> >> > ‘had
>> >> > to leave’ because there was a ‘genuine threat’ to their ‘life’ &
>> >> > ‘dignity’
>> >> > in the wake of the killing of ‘many innocent’ Kashmiri Hindu Pandits.
>> >> > Just
>> >> > to add to that, it wasn’t mere ‘killings’ but the brutality with
>> >> > which
>> >> > the
>> >> > killings were executed as per a systematically worked out diabolic
>> >> > plan
>> >> > to
>> >> > unleash ethnic cleansing in Kashmir that forced the hapless community
>> >> > to
>> >> > abandon their homes & hearths. This ‘Jagmohan’ factor used by the
>> >> > separatists & their propagandists/sympathisers alike to hide their
>> >> > shame
>> >> > only belittles your concern which I would want to believe is genuine.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > First thing first- I think it is utterly outrageous to even insinuate
>> >> > that
>> >> > Kashmiri Hindu Pandits are ‘fond’ of speaking about their exodus
>> >> > whenever
>> >> > there is an opportunity. You would agree that as the first victims of
>> >> > jihadi
>> >> > terror since its advent on Indian soil, Kashmiri Pandits can not be
>> >> > deprived
>> >> > of their basic right to ‘speak’ about their brutal ‘exodus’ however
>> >> > uncomforting it may sound to the self acclaimed secular liberals.
>> >> >
>> >> > Dear, why should you mind even that? After all, you did not mind
>> >> > giving
>> >> > that self-glorified performance to boost the moral of the Kashmiri
>> >> > Muslim
>> >> > ‘stone pelters’ & their sympathisers who had the audacity to rant
>> >> > ‘azadi’/’
>> >> > ‘nizame Mustafa’ slogans in Kashmir at Jantar Mantra recently. It is
>> >> > unfair
>> >> > on your part to be constantly critical of Kashmiri Pandits rendered
>> >> > refugees
>> >> > in their own country.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > As for your comments on the other members on this forum, I am sure
>> >> > they
>> >> > would respond to you appropriately. But personally, I would prefer to
>> >> > avoid
>> >> > any discussion on the statements, even if provocative in nature, by
>> >> > the
>> >> > members of the minorities who chose to stay back for what ever
>> >> > reasons &
>> >> > I
>> >> > would request not to rake up the issue lest you jeopardise their
>> >> > security.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Please do not forget that there is a standing fatwa from the
>> >> > patriarch
>> >> > of
>> >> > ‘azadi- bara- e- Islam’ on Kashmiri Hindu Pandits that they can only
>> >> > return
>> >> > if they are ready to join ‘their’ freedom ‘struggle’. The honourable
>> >> > parliamentarians’ visit to his home might suggest the helplessness of
>> >> > Indian
>> >> > democracy but I will be more concerned about what these
>> >> > parliamentarians
>> >> > speak about the visit on their return. I do concede that the sagging
>> >> > status
>> >> > of the Moolvi moonlighting as a separatist leader as well as the
>> >> > former
>> >> > terror commander who unabashedly continues to take credit for having
>> >> > founded
>> >> > the ‘gun culture’ in the valley will get a boost & so the war for the
>> >> > post
>> >> > of Emir of Kashmir will only intensify & the agony of Kashmiris only
>> >> > gets
>> >> > prolonged.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I can only say that but for the blunders committed by the successive
>> >> > Govts.
>> >> > Kashmir would not have been an issue at all. It is the continued
>> >> > appeasement
>> >> > & the policy to promote dynasties that has prevented integration of
>> >> > Kashmir
>> >> > with the main stream India. The role played by the so called civil
>> >> > society
>> >> > is even worse –its continued pampering of the secessionists has only
>> >> >
>> >> > facilitated the growth of rabid pan -Islamic mindset in the valley.
>> >> > Today,
>> >> > ordinary Kashmiri Muslims are being held hostage by none other than
>> >> > their
>> >> > own who are out there in the streets creating mayhem at the behest of
>> >> > proponents of Azadi- bara- e- Islam.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, you are right, Kashmiri Hindu Pandits are facing crisis. It is
>> >> > not
>> >> > so
>> >> > simple to be living with the ignominy of being refugees in your own
>> >> > country.
>> >> > You may prefer to ignore it but Kashmiri Hindu Pandits are perusing a
>> >> > political agenda to return to the valley of their ancestors where
>> >> > their
>> >> > safety & dignity are guaranteed under one Indian secular constitution
>> >> > only.
>> >> > ‘Two flags’ & ‘two constitutions’ have failed to stop persecution of
>> >> > Kashmiri Hindu Pandits that began with the arrival of militant Islam
>> >> > in
>> >> > the
>> >> > medieval times in Kashmir.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > You may have your own reasons to be infatuated with the Kashmiri
>> >> > pan-Islamists who want to resurrect medievalism in Kashmir. Just
>> >> > because
>> >> > you
>> >> > think you can’t fight ‘them’ does not imply that you should be
>> >> > joining
>> >> > them.
>> >> > I would like to make it clear that my love for India & the
>> >> >
>> >> > tri- colour is unconditional. I am proud of my Hindu identity & it in
>> >> > no
>> >> > way
>> >> > prevents me from regarding all other religious communities as equal
>> >> > stakeholders in this country.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I fail to understand your confidence in your belief that Kashmiri
>> >> > language,
>> >> > heritage, music, poetry are well preserved in the hands of those who
>> >> > consider heritage (other than Islamic), music & even poetry against
>> >> > the
>> >> > religion that is sought to be ‘the law’ in Kashmir. I am sure you are
>> >> > aware
>> >> > of the historical distortions that are being invented by the vested
>> >> > interests in Kashmir today.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I do not agree with your contention that the present conflict is
>> >> > between
>> >> > the
>> >> > Govt. of India & the ‘people of Kashmir’. No, please do not
>> >> > ‘generalise’.
>> >> > Most Kashmiris would find it offensive to be associated with
>> >> > obscurantisms.
>> >> > You would be wasting your time & energy in propagating the separatist
>> >> > propaganda in seeking the Kashmiri Pandits’ return to connect with
>> >> > the
>> >> > ‘Kashmiri Muslims’. Please correct your perceptions. I have genuine
>> >> > grievances against Kashmiri Muslims in general for they failed to
>> >> > protect a
>> >> > miniscule minority in their neighbourhoods, but there is no hatred as
>> >> > such.
>> >> > I have said it earlier if at all the so called Kashmiriyat exists
>> >> > today
>> >> > it
>> >> > is in the hearts of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits far awy from Kashmir in
>> >> > refugee
>> >> > camps & outside. And I also believe, that status quo will not be
>> >> > everlasting
>> >> > in Kashmir. The process of death & destruction initiated by the ‘sons
>> >> > of
>> >> > the
>> >> > soil’ themselves in the name of religion driven separatism will
>> >> > eventually
>> >> > singe the valley (the sparks are beginning to be seen even now) &
>> >> > that
>> >> > is
>> >> > when the hitherto silent because of fear & religious blackmail,
>> >> > Kashmiri
>> >> > Muslim masses will be out in the streets to chase the separatists to
>> >> > POK
>> >> > where they actually deserve to be, in the lap of their Pakistani
>> >> > masters.
>> >> > Don’t forget, Kashmiris have done it earlier, when they spurned the
>> >> > two
>> >> > nation theory author-Mr. Jinnah’s moves to seduce them.
>> >> >
>> >> > Rgds
>> >> >
>> >> > LA
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:08:27 +0530
>> >> >> From: indersalim at gmail.com
>> >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri scessionist movement has pan
>> >> >> Islamic
>> >> >> roots
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dear Lalit
>> >> >> I have written it earlier also
>> >> >> but i repeat, not for you also but many KP brothers who are fond of
>> >> >> speaking about exodus as and when there is any opportunity.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> well, recently i met a KP friend who was quite upset with Aditya Raj
>> >> >> Kaul who remained mum during a TV discussion ( some Times channel )
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> exodus of KPs from valley in 90. It was some Sikh representative,
>> >> >> Mr.Jagat Singh ( perhaps ) who said that KPs left the valley on
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> own. which was music to Bilal Lone, the other conversant in the
>> >> >> room.
>> >> >> May be Mr. Aditya Raj Koul ji can clarify it in detail. The
>> >> >> discussion
>> >> >> was about the recent threat to Sikh community by some elements who
>> >> >> wanted them leave the valley. I see little TV myself...so dont know
>> >> >> the exact thing...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On the other hand, i maintain the fact that KPs had to leave the
>> >> >> valley in 1990 because there was a genuine threat to life and
>> >> >> dignity,
>> >> >> given the fact that many innocent KPs were killed. Jagmohan indeed
>> >> >> provided curfew relaxation to those who wanted to leave, but he is
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> the core player of KP exodus. However, the contradiction remain that
>> >> >> GOI was knowing it all from word go, and remained silent spectators
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> worsening situation... it is still mystery to me... ( in other words
>> >> >> i
>> >> >> see GOI as a direct cause of KP exodus, not only historically but in
>> >> >> 1990 as well )
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It is the same Aditya who said Geelani hoon hia hia, atJantar Mantar
>> >> >> recently, ( Down with Geelaii dog ) which i found utterly
>> >> >> unparliamentary since i have never heard SAS Geelani saying such
>> >> >> things openly to KPs ( this i am saying after i have deep problems
>> >> >> with his only religious political card for Kashmir conflict ) It is
>> >> >> the same SAS Geelani who is refusing indian Home Minister to meet. I
>> >> >> wrote earlier also that Chidambaram would go to Kashmir and knock
>> >> >> his
>> >> >> door for a meeting for peace...Where does RIK people stand,
>> >> >> politically...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But Geelani sahib is not the only one who represents Kashmir
>> >> >> conflict
>> >> >> at the core. there are others, and there are people in general who
>> >> >> represent themselves now... see how SAS Geelani's call for hartal
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> rejected recently..... it is not easy for GOI to cut a deal with
>> >> >> Huriyat even... so where do KPs hard core anti KM politics stand....
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, KPs right now facing cultural identity crises at the moment...
>> >> >> They are rapidly realizing that there will no Kashmiiri seapking boy
>> >> >> or girl after one or two decades down the line. If there will be
>> >> >> anybody able to recite Lad Ded or Krishan joo razdan, it will be KM
>> >> >> from valley...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> so what use to unfurl Tricolour in front of people protesting about
>> >> >> the recent killings at Jantar Mantar.
>> >> >> The best thing KPs can do is to reconnect themselves with KM's in
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> valley and restore cultural links... the situation is quite
>> >> >> different
>> >> >> from 1990, things can change if KP love their language, heritage,
>> >> >> music, poetry... sorry not this Nationalism.. which is of no use in
>> >> >> deeper sense.... believe me...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> that is the only real thing i feel, if KP begin with anything
>> >> >> positive.....
>> >> >> that way they can dream to return back, even...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> seemingly the conflict is between Govt of India and the people of
>> >> >> kashmir, so KP ought to give time to the most vital thing... the
>> >> >> real
>> >> >> kashmir is also about its ancient echos, not Hindu religous identity
>> >> >> alone... that too will be political.. but we need guts
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I know you will point out the fact that KPs too are kashmirs.
>> >> >> but i want to know how, not only in the present, but after2 or three
>> >> >> decades...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> with love
>> >> >> is
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Lalit Ambardar
>> >> >> <lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > My apologies.There is a minor correction in the subject line
>> >> >> > ,hence
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > repeated mail.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Rgds all
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > LA
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The issue of ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits at the
>> >> >> > hands
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > Kashmiri jihadis is usually ignored.But now,the hesitation to
>> >> >> > admit
>> >> >> > 'pan
>> >> >> > Islamic fervour' being the sole inspiration for the on going
>> >> >> > Kashmiri
>> >> >> > scessionist movement seems to be fading away. As the discourse on
>> >> >> > Kashmir
>> >> >> > takes a new course, the 'ambuiguity' is being replaced by
>> >> >> > 'positions'.Here
>> >> >> > is how VIr Sanghvi takes his position:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Vir Sanghvi, Hindustan Times
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > New Delhi, September 18, 2010
>> >> >> > Our secularism will
>> >> >> > withstand any opposition
>> >> >> > I don’t know about you but I feel a deep weariness and a mounting
>> >> >> > frustration when I see the position of Kashmiri separatists
>> >> >> > described
>> >> >> > again
>> >> >> > and again in the media and in the foreign press in particular.
>> >> >> > By now, most Indians know the separatist position by heart: the
>> >> >> > accession of Kashmir in 1947 was dubious, for many years Kashmiri
>> >> >> > elections
>> >> >> > were rigged, Kashmir is a Muslim majority state in Hindu India,
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > army
>> >> >> > subjects the Valley to a reign of terror etc.
>> >> >> > Integral to this position is a caricature of how Indians feel
>> >> >> > about
>> >> >> > Kashmir. We are, apparently, a Hindu-majority State that is
>> >> >> > determined to
>> >> >> > hang on by force to Kashmir.
>> >> >> > Over the last few years, this frequently articulated position has
>> >> >> > begun
>> >> >> > to annoy me not just because it’s untrue but because it describes
>> >> >> > an
>> >> >> > India
>> >> >> > that I do not recognise and ascribe views to Indians that I know
>> >> >> > we
>> >> >> > do not
>> >> >> > hold.
>> >> >> > In my experience, the attitude of Indians towards Kashmir is not
>> >> >> > guided
>> >> >> > by Hindu chauvinism or Indian imperialism. In fact, the
>> >> >> > overwhelming
>> >> >> > emotion
>> >> >> > when it comes to our understanding of Kashmir is one of
>> >> >> > bewilderment.
>> >> >> > The
>> >> >> > vast majority of Indians are bewildered by the Kashmir problem and
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > demands of Kashmiri militants. Why do the Kashmiris hate us so
>> >> >> > much?
>> >> >> > And
>> >> >> > what is it that they actually want?
>> >> >> > There is one part of the separatist position that we understand.
>> >> >> > We
>> >> >> > recognise that it must be hell to live with a constant military
>> >> >> > presence in
>> >> >> > a state where citizens are subject to random police checks and
>> >> >> > where
>> >> >> > curfew
>> >> >> > is a regular occurrence. Most of us are intensely embarrassed by
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > stories
>> >> >> > of human rights abuses — some of which must surely be true.
>> >> >> > But equally, most of us would argue that the military presence is
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > response to a violent insurrection against the Indian State. Till
>> >> >> > 1989,
>> >> >> > Kashmir did not have such a strong military presence. The army
>> >> >> > went
>> >> >> > in only
>> >> >> > after the violence increased, after key leaders were assassinated,
>> >> >> > after
>> >> >> > kidnappings became a regular occurrence, and after jihadis
>> >> >> > thronged
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > Kashmir from across the border.
>> >> >> > Violence begets violence. If you declare war on the Indian State,
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > State is not going to roll over and let you tickle its stomach. It
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > obliged to fight back and to assert both its authority and the
>> >> >> > rule
>> >> >> > of law.
>> >> >> > Most Indians would love to see the army withdrawn from Kashmir.
>> >> >> > Indian
>> >> >> > soldiers have no particular desire to risk their lives in Kashmir.
>> >> >> > But each
>> >> >> > time we talk of reducing the army presence or of amending the
>> >> >> > Armed
>> >> >> > Forces
>> >> >> > Special Powers Act (AFSPA), the violence actually seems to
>> >> >> > increase.
>> >> >> > There
>> >> >> > is no evidence that a reduction in the military presence will be
>> >> >> > greeted by
>> >> >> > a similar reduction in the level of militant violence.
>> >> >> > Besides, even if the army were withdrawn and there was no state
>> >> >> > violence
>> >> >> > in Kashmir, would the separatists change their stance? Would they
>> >> >> > say
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > they now accepted Indian sovereignty? I don’t think so. The army
>> >> >> > presence is
>> >> >> > unfortunate. But it is not the core issue.
>> >> >> > From our perspective, the secessionist sentiment in Kashmir is
>> >> >> > bewildering because (except for the army presence) the average
>> >> >> > Kashmiri has
>> >> >> > the same deal as every other Indian except perhaps that the Indian
>> >> >> > State
>> >> >> > spends more money on him. Per capita expenditure on each Kashmiri
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > vastly
>> >> >> > greater than Delhi’s per capita expenditure on, say, the average
>> >> >> > Bihari.
>> >> >> > Further, Kashmiris have the same democratic rights as other
>> >> >> > Indians.
>> >> >> > Even if you accept that elections were rigged in the past, that
>> >> >> > has
>> >> >> > not been
>> >> >> > true for several years. The People’s Democratic Party
>> >> >> > (PDP)-government was
>> >> >> > legitimately elected and so is the current National Conference
>> >> >> > regime.
>> >> >> > Moreover, Kashmiris have many rights (through Article 370) that
>> >> >> > Indians who
>> >> >> > reside in other parts of the country do not have.
>> >> >> > We accept that because of the circumstances of Kashmir’s
>> >> >> > accession,
>> >> >> > there may have been separatist sentiment in the years following
>> >> >> > 1947.
>> >> >> > Certainly, we have faced secessionist movements in many parts of
>> >> >> > India —
>> >> >> > Tamil Nadu, Nagaland, Punjab, etc — but in every case we have
>> >> >> > managed
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > fulfil the aspirations of the people and quell the separatist
>> >> >> > sentiment. But
>> >> >> > what is it about Kashmir that despite our best efforts, this
>> >> >> > generation of
>> >> >> > Kashmiris, born many years after 1947, continues to demand
>> >> >> > secession?
>> >> >> > More mystifying for us is that we don’t know what the Kashmiris
>> >> >> > want.
>> >> >> > Who in his right mind would want union with today’s troubled
>> >> >> > Pakistan? Who
>> >> >> > wouldn’t prefer India’s success story to the Pakistani saga of
>> >> >> > national
>> >> >> > collapse?
>> >> >> > Nor does Pakistan have any record of treating its non-Punjabi
>> >> >> > minorities
>> >> >> > well. Bangladesh seceded after the Pakistani army launched a
>> >> >> > genocide. The
>> >> >> > Baluchs were massacred by the same army. And PoK is hardly a
>> >> >> > shining
>> >> >> > advertisement for the virtues of Pakistani citizenship.
>> >> >> > Some Kashmiris say they want independence from both India and
>> >> >> > Pakistan.
>> >> >> > But it is staggeringly obvious that an independent state of
>> >> >> > Kashmir,
>> >> >> > with no
>> >> >> > industry to speak of, would last for 15 minutes without subsidies
>> >> >> > from India
>> >> >> > or Pakistan. Worse still, such a state would probably be run
>> >> >> > according to
>> >> >> > strict Shariat law, denying rights to women and offering safe
>> >> >> > haven
>> >> >> > to the
>> >> >> > world’s jihadis. You would have to be very naive to believe that
>> >> >> > America or
>> >> >> > any great power would support the creation of such a state.
>> >> >> > So, why then are Kashmiris destroying their future in a mad and
>> >> >> > pointless insurrection? I don’t think most Indians know the answer
>> >> >> > but we
>> >> >> > suspect that it might have to do with religion. In today’s secular
>> >> >> > India,
>> >> >> > religion is no longer a crucial determinant of political
>> >> >> > behaviour.
>> >> >> > We find
>> >> >> > the notion of a state founded only on religious identity
>> >> >> > old-fashioned and
>> >> >> > bizarre.
>> >> >> > But clearly, religion matters more to the separatists than
>> >> >> > anything
>> >> >> > else. The state has three parts, all of which get the same deal
>> >> >> > from
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > Centre. But it is only in the Valley, which is nearly all Muslim
>> >> >> > (after the
>> >> >> > ethnic cleansing of the Kashmiri Pandits) that secession finds
>> >> >> > many
>> >> >> > takers.
>> >> >> > This single-minded pursuit of an Islamic future sets Kashmiri
>> >> >> > separatists
>> >> >> > apart from Indian Muslims who have accepted a secular polity and
>> >> >> > feel
>> >> >> > no
>> >> >> > kinship with their Kashmiri brethren’s political demands.
>> >> >> > But because Kashmiri secessionism flows from an Islamist ideology,
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > poses special problems for India. I suspect that many of us are
>> >> >> > now
>> >> >> > so fed
>> >> >> > up that we would be relieved to be rid of the Valley but for our
>> >> >> > fears for
>> >> >> > the future of Indian secularism. At some level, we wonder if this
>> >> >> > would not
>> >> >> > be a second Partition and we are afraid of what Kashmir’s
>> >> >> > secession
>> >> >> > would
>> >> >> > mean for India’s thriving Muslim minority.
>> >> >> > Ironically, it is this sentiment based on nothing more than a
>> >> >> > desire
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > protect Indian secularism that allows the separatists to tell the
>> >> >> > world that
>> >> >> > India is full of chauvinist Hindus who send their armies to attack
>> >> >> > Kashmiri
>> >> >> > Muslims. It is an old lie. It is a variation of the same untruth
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > Muslim League spread in the run-up to Partition. Indian secularism
>> >> >> > survived
>> >> >> > that lie. And no matter how much the Kashmiri separatists may
>> >> >> > misrepresent
>> >> >> > our position now, both India and its secularism will triumph
>> >> >> > again.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > _________________________________________
>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> >> >> > To unsubscribe:
>> >> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>> >> >> _________________________________________
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>> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations
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>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>> >> _________________________________________
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>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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>> >
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>> _________________________________________
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