[Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in Kashmir

[Anjuman Ara Begum]

Dear Bipin,
I am sure you will get more opportunities to show your ignorance about the
history behind article 370 if you continue in this thread of discussion.
also i hope you will also be able to name the ' two other states' where
AFSPA is in force.

Best regards
anjuman

On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:

> I believe that Article 370 is useless and must be remove from all the
> states. This law restricts industrial development and ultimately
> unemployment remains there. Earlier I have made lots of communication on
> this topic, if you have not read I will send it to you separately on your
> request.
>
>
>
> Allotted money does not utilize fully for the respected state is common
> problem for all the states as lots of money goes in between and not
> applicable to Kashmir only.
>
>
>
> Paramilitary force lower cadre who obeys the order only might not knowing
> about protesters, but top brass who is in charge of forces are fully aware
> with the problem.
>
>
>
> I have full right to put my view and as a Indian I am alerting common
> people
> of Kashmiri, who are Indian citizens also,  that do not come in the trap of
> separatist.
>
>
>
> Normally when the border states facing its own sovereignty threats from
> across the border, laws like AFSPA come into effect. Kashmir is altogether
> different issue to continue AFSPA, while other 2 states this law is
> prevailing for different reason and whether to remove or not can be decided
> jointly by state/central  government.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Bipin Trivedi
>
>
>
>
>
> From: anupam chakravartty [mailto:c.anupam at gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 12:55 PM
> To: SUNDARA BABU; sarai list; bipin
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement
> on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
>
>
>
> Dear Bipin,
>
> 1. Can you prove that on going demonstrations and protests has anything to
> do with Article 370 or as a consequence of tax payer's money being diverted
> to protect the so called special privileges of Kashmiris? If article 370
> guarantees special privileges to the Kashmiris, why is it that there is
> discontentment among the people?
>
> 2. Can you also prove that heavy spending on Kashmir is exclusively for the
> Kashmiris, who are now protesting?
>
> 3. Article 370 is applicable to two other states as well. Would you know
> terms under which these two other states have been brought under this
> article?
>
> 4. Is a paramilitary armed soldier equipped enough to understand the angst
> of a protesting Kashmiri? I do not think so. It has never been the case.
>
> 5. For any conflict to be called internal or external, it needs two
> conflicting sides to agree to the nature of conflict. Do both the sides say
> whether this conflict is internal or external? Who are you to comment on
> the
> nature of this conflict?
>
> 6. Manipur and Assam (for ages now), similar to Kashmir has been asking for
> the removal of AFSPA. These two states do not enjoy any priviledges under
> Article 370. How do you explain the dissent against AFSPA in these two
> states?
>
> I would appreciate if you could mull over these questions. I also
> appreciate
> that you are directly addressing my doubts and writings, which earlier was
> absent despite my efforts to reply to every other thing that you posted
> about Gujarat. Hoping to hear from you again Bipin.
>
> with regards,
> Anupam
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:26 AM, SUNDARA BABU <babuubab at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
> There is no evidence so far that Amnesty International is Anti-India or
> Pro-Pakistani. Whether we like or not, with all its limitations, AMNESTY
> INTERNATIONAL is THE world's biggest and greatest human rights organisation
> so far. It hardly matters whether we agree to this or not. But its
> statements seriously influences the rogue government forces and rebel
> elements involving in terror acts, across the world alike, in reducing
> violence. Moreover, HUMAN RIGHTS IS EVERYBOBY's BUSINESS. So please
> highlight clearly what you think is a lie in the Amnesty Statement on J&K
> and help them to correct the flaws. Every responsible INDIAN CITIZEN should
> lend hands to strenghten such organisations to have a vibrant democratic
> INDIA as a nation with justice and peace.
> regards,
> Sundara Babu
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 25 September 2010 23:25, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>
> > Anupam,
> >
> > Kashmir is having special status with article 370 and enjoying more
> rights
> > than rest of the India. So, your doubts for their rights are irrelevant.
> I
> > am worrying for my country and so for Kashmir also, what's wrong in it.
> You
> > or many others like you may not believe that Kashmir is part of India,
> but
> > fact is that Kashmir is still part of India. India is spending heavily on
> > Kashmir, almost highest or second highest per capita spending among all
> the
> > states. As a tax payer, we have full right to look in this matter since
> > they
> > are enjoying aids more than they need. Kashmir is not generating revenue
> > for
> > their own deeds like not allowing industries, ongoing disturbance does
> not
> > allowing to develop tourism and other developments, so unemployment bound
> > to
> > be there and they themselves are responsible for that.
> >
> > Geelani is key conspirator for ongoing disturbance in Kashmir all these
> > years and responsible for Kashmir remain backwards. India spends heavily
> on
> > Kashmir for his negative acts so naturally all the tax payers have full
> > right to say for his acts. He may not believe him as Indian but enjoying
> > all
> > the Indian rights, aids and so he is answerable. But, even after so many
> > years he remains the same and so one should not hesitate to tell him
> > foolish. I am not creating any disturbance and so there is no question to
> > tell for him against me. For my writing if he reads he has full right to
> > say
> > whatever he wants to. Whatever bad things in India do not describe her as
> > rogue state. That's internal matter of India and India does not interfere
> > in
> > other country, not creating any kind of disturbance, terrorism unlike
> Pak.
> > That is why Pak is rogue state. No of reasons can be given for Pakistan
> > being rogue state.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bipin Trivedi
> >
> >
> > From: anupam chakravartty [mailto:c.anupam at gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 2:04 AM
> > To: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public
> Statement
> > on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
> >
> > Bipin,
> >
> > I would not comment on Amnesty Intl position on the Iraq war. I
> appreciate
> > that you understand the value of freedom and specific denomination given
> to
> > this idea by the developing societies: that there is an underlying bitter
> > truth about freedom. I think this bitter truth is that freedom comes with
> > responsibility. Why are you "worried" about Kashmiris? If are you worried
> > that there are thousands of people, who have died during this conflict.
> Yes
> > that is worrisome. Then the resolution of the Kashmir dispute ought to be
> > in
> > the way Kashmiris want it to be because my freedom here is not at stake,
> so
> > to speak of. Nor are yours. Nobody has told you that if you do not worry
> > about Kashmiris, they are going to bomb your establishment. So far, most
> of
> > the acts of terrorism targeting India have always been a list of demands
> > which have been reported to have originated from the militant sections of
> > Kashmiris were mostly about their freedom or the recognition of their
> > rights. From seeking the release of the political prisoners to the
> protests
> > or followed by attacks, seeking custody of a body murdered by a bunch of
> > security men. It has always been about their freedom, which has been
> > encroached by group of men. The political prisoners might be criminals or
> > murderers. I may not be in a position to dispute those charges. However,
> > their motivations do not change, even if we kill them. They are political
> > prisoners demanding sovereign state, threatening the Indian establishment
> > on
> > every occasion when their rights are violated. However those who are
> > demanding that AFSPA should be withdrawn, I presume are also saying that
> > the
> > ones who have left for the less trodden path could come home. So that the
> > elders could remind the younger ones to understand their responsibilities
> > along with this struggle to restore their rights. When there are doubts
> > about what rights do they have, what responsibility or bitter truths can
> we
> > discuss about Bipin on this list? Can the presence of gun wielding men
> > ensure such an atmosphere, where a discussion about rights vis-a-vis
> > responsibilities could take place? These questions have been raised not
> > only
> > in case of Kashmir but also Manipur.
> >
> > You are describing Geelani as foolish. But then Geelani has not said
> > anything about you or the position you hold. He is not even worried about
> > the other parts of India and expressed a satisfaction or dissatisfaction
> > over issue not related with Kashmir. And this debate, would you not
> > consider
> > that if there exists an entity such as rogue Pakistan and very
> conversely,
> > in all its manifestations, there exists a rogue India. We might run out
> of
> > examples, if we consider the local Panchayat polls where rogue India
> > thrives
> > in its particularity. To sum up, the territoriality of India cannot rest
> on
> > the idea that this territoriality or this integrity could be imposed if
> the
> > need arises. It is too weak an idea, will always be an impediment on
> > building a strong and critical foundation of this country. I am not in a
> > position to offer resolution for Kashmir or Manipur but a step forward
> > would
> > be withdrawal of troops from the civilian areas. These are views are
> > however
> > very personal and not meant to demean certain sacrifices of Indian troops
> > or
> > rescue work that was carried out during calamities.
> >
> > Thanks Anupam
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in>
> wrote:
> > Anupam,
> >
> > Of course all the Indians must worry for their territory and preserve
> their
> > boundary intact, what is wrong in it. We should not ready to get away our
> > territory for the act of few foolish people like Geelani and  rogue
> > Pakistan.
> >
> > But I am not making such stand for only territoriality of India. If that
> is
> > the case than I would have not gone with that assumption even after
> > achieving freedom... I am equally worry for the Kashmiri people reflects
> in
> > the statement "But after achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of
> > Kashmir realizes that how the bitter truth is". I am trying to alert the
> > people that do not come in the trap of separatists just showing the
> > lollipop
> > of freedom without any optimistic future plan. After freedom your
> situation
> > will be even worse. Please understand this. That's all.
> >
> > I am talking about Amnesty dual attitude about US and others. US was
> > planning for Iraq war before actual war by giving reasons that they
> possess
> > chemical weapon and having terror infrastructure. Everyone knows that
> this
> > was wrong reason and actual agenda is to capture their oil field. At that
> > time why Amnesty keep mum. By their voice and if averted war than lot of
> > life would have been saved.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bipin Trivedi
> >
> >
> > From: anupam chakravartty [mailto:c.anupam at gmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:48 PM
> > To: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public
> Statement
> > on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
> >
> > Bipin Trivedi
> >
> > Amnesty International may be flawed in its report, could you explain your
> > comments on the collective destinies of lakhs of people ("But after
> > achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of Kashmir realizes that how
> > the bitter truth is. In that case after few years of azadi, I am sure
> > Kashmiri people will start reverse agitation and urge India to free from
> > separatist. They will agitate to join fully with Indian continent and if
> it
> > happens, what will separatists do? I am sure it will going to happen if
> > azadi is given to Kashmiri.")? It is very clear that you care for the
> > territoriality of Indian state rather than its people and their
> > aspirations.
> > And a question to you, in the present times, having listened to all those
> > who are asking for freedom, those who say we will 'safeguard' your
> freedom,
> > those whose voices have never been heard but it is only now that after so
> > many years that have had to come out on the streets to negotiate their
> own
> > freedoms, what should be agenda of the state trying to negotiate such
> > conflicts? should the preservation of territoriality of the state be on
> the
> > agenda or consider the aspirations?
> >
> > is territoriality an important aspect of the present times? no please do
> > not
> > give me a lecture on security and safety of the state and its people,
> > things
> > about Islamic fundamentalism. we have had our share of prison breaks, of
> > utterly dissatisfied people (living very much under the state's security
> > perimeter) killing their neighbours in the most cold blooded manner. the
> > reasons have been the same: he has a bigger car than mine. i think the
> idea
> > of territoriality of the state arises from such a position.
> >
> >
> >
> > Moreover, why this comparison: "Where was Amnesty International when US
> > attacked Iraq for their own interest of capturing Oil fields?" are you
> > talking about kashmir or iraq? if you can make such comparisons, where
> are
> > you when half of your nuclear facilities are going to be monitored by the
> > Americans, post the deal? is it not a question of what you call "internal
> > matter"? My idea here was not start another debate on nuclear deal but a
> > message to people, including commentators here to not try and hijack the
> > issue of Kashmir by citing various comparisons with situations that are
> > remotely connected to the issue of Kashmir. As a witness to the debate
> > about
> > Kashmir, the resolution lies in understanding the uniqueness of this
> issue,
> > not demonstrating your knowledge about similar issues. In terms of
> content,
> > it may sound very exotic, shows well informed you are but logically
> flawed.
> > I am convinced that territoriality of an already sovereign state is not
> the
> > correct means to analyse the aspirations of a certain group of persons.
> > Even
> > if we say that they might have been misled, when you are in the side of
> the
> > state, you cannot afford to be in a position to assert your own
> sovereignty
> > over these people who do not feel the same way. You will be referred to
> as
> > a
> > tyrant, or a bully. I am sorry but I am also an Indian, and I cannot see
> > the
> > foundations on which this state was formed being violated by a few
> tyrants,
> > who legitimately or illegitimately call themselves as rulers. These are
> > very
> > personal observations from what I have read or seen or discussed in last
> > one
> > and a half months with some of my friends, who held similar positions
> like
> > yours Bipin.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Anupam
> > On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in>
> wrote:
> > Where was Amnesty International when US attacked Iraq for their own
> > interest
> > of capturing Oil fields? Don't interfere in Indian internal matter and
> > don't
> > advise us anything. We will handle it. How to handle, whether to remove
> > AFSPA or not, we will decide. So Amnesty, mind your own business and do
> not
> > interfere.
> >
> > When Protesters try to disturbed the peace, what will the forces do? They
> > are obeying their duty to restore the peace and in that whoever comes in
> > between has to pay the penalty. When no human rights applicable to
> > protesters, terrorists than why to armed forces?
> >
> > Today news was aired that NC and PDP wants yet more independent power in
> > Kashmir. Is it the solution and the things will solve? Not at all.
> Crooked
> > separatist like Geelani, Miwaiz, Yasin never accept anything than total
> > freedom. Since they are staying in India physically but by heart they are
> > Pakistani and Pakistan never let live them other than Kashmir freedom.
> >
> > What have separatists plan after getting freedom. Kashmir is totally
> > depending on tourism and have they thought that after Kashmir becoming
> > separate state, tourism will effect heavily. Kashmir as a separate state
> > will bankrupt financially which you could not understand since at present
> > India spent heavily for Kashmir. So after freedom, if they think that Pak
> > will finance than they are mistaken, since Pak is already bagging from
> US,
> > how can they help? So, like Pak you have to become bagger from US.
> >
> > For this movement, you must have taken granted the support of Jammu
> people
> > than you are mistaken. Since, I am sure Jammu people will definitely
> prefer
> > to stay with India. So, first you have to agree for the division of state
> > and then go ahead with your freedom movement restricted to valley only.
> >
> > But after achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of Kashmir
> realizes
> > that how the bitter truth is. In that case after few years of azadi, I am
> > sure Kashmiri people will start reverse agitation and urge India to free
> > from separatist. They will agitate to join fully with Indian continent
> and
> > if it happens, what will separatists do? I am sure it will going to
> happen
> > if azadi is given to Kashmiri.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bipin Trivedi
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:
> reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]
> > On Behalf Of Nagraj Adve
> > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 8:26 PM
> > To: Sarai; Free Binayak Sen; ecological-democracy at lists.riseup.net
> > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on
> > Rising Deaths in Kashmir
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: gautam navlakha <gnavlakha at gmail.com>
> > Date: 18 September 2010 20:24
> > Subject: [pudr] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising
> > Deaths in Kashmir
> > To: activist <activist at pudr.org>, asish gupta <asishroop at gmail.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Khurram Parvez <khurramparvez at yahoo.com>
> > Date: Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM
> > Subject: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in
> > Kashmir
> > To: kparvez at kashmirprocess.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On *Fri, 9/17/10, iteam at amnesty.org <iteam at amnesty.org>* wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: iteam at amnesty.org <iteam at amnesty.org>
> > Subject: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in
> Kashmir
> > To: iteam at amnesty.org
> > Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 10:31 AM
> >
> > Dear friends
> >
> > Please find below a public statement about the on-going violence in
> Kashmir
> >
> > Best regards,
> > South Asia Team
> > Amnesty International
> > International Secretariat
> > 1 Easton Street
> > London WC1X ODW
> > United Kingdom
> > Tel +44 (0) 20 7413 5500
> > Fax +44 (0) 20 7956 1157
> >
> > http://www.amnesty.org
> > http://www.asiapacific.amnesty.org
> >
> > *AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL* *
> > PUBLIC STATEMENT*
> >
> > AI: Index: ASA20/027/2010
> >
> > 17 September 2010
> >
> > *
> > India: Urgent need for Government to act as death toll rises in Kashmir*
> >
> > With an increasing death toll in protests in Kashmir, Amnesty
> International
> > calls on the Indian authorities to take urgent steps to ensure respect
> for
> > the right to life and to investigate past killings of demonstrators by
> > police.
> >
> > With two more protestors shot dead today, Amnesty International urges the
> > Indian government to immediately instruct the security forces not to use
> > firearms against demonstrators,   Security forces should use the minimum
> > force necessary to defend themselves or others against an imminent threat
> > of
> > death or serious injury. They should not employ intentional lethal use of
> > firearms except where such use is strictly unavoidable in order to
> protect
> > life.
> >
> > Ninety-six people have been killed since June when protests broke out in
> > Jammu and Kashmir after the killings of three young men, reportedly by
> the
> > security forces, in March.  The vast majority of these killings have been
> > at
> > the hands of police and paramilitary forces.
> >
> > An inquiry ordered by the authorities into 11 of the deaths by shooting
> in
> > July has failed to make headway.  Amnesty International renews its call
> to
> > the government to initiate an independent, impartial and thorough
> > investigation into all the killings.  Members of the security forces
> > responsible for excessive use of force in demonstrations should be
> brought
> > to justice.
> >
> > In the last week alone, at least 23 people were killed and 80 others
> > injured
> > in shootings by the state police and the Central Reserve Police Force
> > (CRPF)
> > paramilitary personnel. Protestors defied curfew regulations, held
> > demonstrations and often clashed with the security personnel.
> >
> > Protests in several places turned violent as demonstrators hurled stones
> at
> > the security forces in the last week. Reports about threats to burn the
> > Quran in the United States increased tensions.  Demonstrators attacked
> two
> > Christian schools and a hospital, burning one of the schools.
> >
> > At the same time human rights activists in Srinagar told Amnesty
> > International that on a number of occasions the security forces shot
> > protestors who were throwing stones at them.
> >
> > A number of towns in the Kashmir valley including Srinagar have been
> under
> > 24 hour curfew for the last five days.
> >
> > Information about these events has been restricted as a result of strict
> > enforcement of the curfew regulations. Journalists have informed Amnesty
> > International that, despite possessing curfew passes issued by the
> > authorities, they have been prevented by the police and the paramilitary
> > personnel from leaving their homes. With journalists unable to report on
> > the
> > situation, a number of regional television stations and newspapers have
> > suspended their work.
> >
> > Any restrictions on the rights to freedom of movement or freedom of
> > expression imposed for the protection of public order should only be such
> > as
> > are necessary and proportionate for that purpose and should be consistent
> > with the state's other human rights obligations. In view of the key role
> of
> > journalists in facilitating exercise the right to freedom of expression,
> > which includes the right to receive information.  Amnesty International
> > calls on the Indian authorities to ensure that journalists can obtain
> > curfew
> > passes and are not harassed or otherwise obstructed while carrying out
> > their
> > professional functions of reporting and imparting information on issues
> of
> > public concern.
> >
> > More public protests have been announced for 21 September by the All
> Party
> > Hurriyat Conference (APHC), one of the largest political formations in
> > Jammu
> > and Kashmir.   This underlines the urgency for  the Indian authorities to
> > instruct the security forces not to use lethal force when dealing with
> > demonstrations.
> >
> > The demonstrations began in late May over the reported extrajudicial
> > execution of three young men by the Army at Machil in Baramulla district.
> > Protests increased after 17-year old Tufail Mattoo was killed by security
> > forces in Srinagar during a demonstration on 11 June. They have
> intensified
> > during repeated cycles of protests and further killings of demonstrators
> by
> > security forces.
> >
> > The demonstrators have raised various concerns about the lack of
> > accountability of the security forces; the withdrawal of Armed Forces
> > (Jammu
> > and Kashmir) Special Powers Act (AFSPA) 1958; the removal of Army camps -
> > along with an underlying demand of independence for Kashmir.
> >
> > The AFSPA, which gives special powers of immunity to the security forces,
> > has been in force in parts of Jammu and Kashmir since 1990. The Central
> > Government is currently debating the withdrawal of the AFSPA from a few
> of
> > its districts.
> >
> > One of the key demands of the state authorities and protesting
> > organizations, namely the withdrawal of the AFSPA, does not appear to
> > figure
> > in the agenda of the all-party team from Delhi scheduled to visit
> Srinagar
> > on 20 September.
> >
> > Under the AFSPA, soldiers are protected from any legal proceedings unless
> > specifically sanctioned by the Central Government. This rarely happens in
> > practice, allowing armed forces personnel to violate human rights with
> > impunity.
> >
> > Ends/
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Working to protect human rights worldwide
> >
> > DISCLAIMER
> >
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>
>
> --
> SUNDARA BABU NAGAPPAN
>
> _________________________________________
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-- 
Anjuman Ara Begum
Phone: +91-9954082155 (M)/ +91-9871262134 (Delhi)
Skype: anjumanarabegum