[Reader-list] F$F v/s free software

[Raju Mathur]

Hi Joy,

My comments under...

>>>>> "Joy" == Joy Chatterjee <joy at sarai.net> writes:

    >> Umm, so the fact that NIIT and WEBEL are helping the community
    >> exonerates MS from all its sins?  That's a new way of looking
    >> of things... lateral, at the very least.

    Joy> I think Prabhat is talking in the context of my mail so let
    Joy> me say that SFS-India is also sponsoring RMS. So who is
    Joy> sinner lets not get in to it.

How you can damn the Linux community for being in bed with corporates
on the one hand and praising NIIT and Webel on the other is slightly
beyond my grasp.  If we try to educate the likes of corporates on the
benefits of Linux we get mud slung at us from the socialists and
communists.  If we don't, then MS gets indirectly praised for
encouraging low-cost computer access and training through the same
corporates.  Interesting position to be in...

    >> I fail to see your point here.  Are you saying that Open Source
    >> (or Free Software) are actually closed because not enough
    >> people have the skill to write programs?  By your logic, Pfizer
    >> should be damned tomorrow if it opens up the process of making
    >> an anti-AIDS drug since 99.999999% of the people in the world
    >> have no way of manufacturing drugs.  Any author who makes
    >> his/her works public is damned because most of the people in
    >> our country are illiterate.  This /mailing list/ is damned
    >> because it's an elitist tool available to only a small fraction
    >> of a percent of people in our country.
    >> 
    >> If you're so concerned about this putative community that you
    >> keep referring to in your message why aren't you spending your
    >> time working for their upliftment instead of playing
    >> intellectual games using elitist media?  How is this going to
    >> help them?

    Joy> If some one opens up certain part of the production process
    Joy> knowing that other part is never be available for the
    Joy> community to replicate that is crook.

Uh, have you read what you're saying?  People who write openly
available documents without teaching everyone to read are crooks?
People who make the formulae and processes for life-saving drugs
available to the masses without also setting up multi-crore
manufacturing plants for each person who wishes to make the drug are
crooks?  Why not just say that any form of Intellectual Property is
worthless and be done with it?  Come to think of it, that also means
that by contributing to and distributing the Sarai Reader the people
who run Sarai are crooks... Wow!

    >> The Free Software movement has many goals.  Making Free
    >> Software is one of them.  Disseminating it another.
    >> Documenting it is a third.  What I read from your message is
    >> that since the Free Software movement has not setup community
    >> training centers for free to make information about Free
    >> Software available to the masses it has no right to exist or to
    >> have any say in any matter of importance.  I find that more a
    >> failure of corporates who're in bed with MS than of Free
    >> Software itself.
    >> 
    >> If you'd looked around a little bit before you wrote your
    >> message you'd have found oodles of information about FSF
    >> software, including information on how to extend it, how to
    >> modify it, how to strip it down to work in minimal
    >> environments; that you consider these aspects of control
    >> indicates... never mind :-)

    Joy> Prabhat never said that Linux should not exist. He is saying
    Joy> it is existing as a monopolised form of knowledge. And it has
    Joy> never shown any interest to share in the community at
    Joy> large. He is complaining against the strategy of Linux users
    Joy> to keep it under their control.

Free software, free documents, tutorials at LUG meetings, mailing
lists in which people spend their time and money to answer questions:
are these symptoms of a strategy to ``keep Linux under their
control''?  Please don't try to imply that just because I don't go and
teach Linux to a bunch of slum children I'm not a responsible member
of society or not working for the general good of the country --
that'd be an unbelievably narrow-minded and blinkered outlook.

    Joy> I had been working in a Linux environment for quite a time
    Joy> now, I never saw any information available outside Linux
    Joy> community and internet.

Exactly where else do you want information from?  I can't go to NIIT
and ask them to start Linux kiosks since that'd be promoting Linux to
corporates for my selfish interests.  I can't go to state governments
and persuade them to adopt Linux since that'd also be promoting Linux
for my selfish interests.  Circular reasoning and rhetoric, impressive
as they sound and fulfilling as they may be to the orator's ego aren't
much use in getting things done.

    >> You may also like to pick up a copy of recent magazines which
    >> give Linux CD's for free along with the magazine.  Come to a
    >> Linux-Delhi meeting where you can pick up copied Linux on CD
    >> for Rs 20 (the cost of a blank) or for nothing if you know how
    >> to turn out your empty pockets.  Install Linux on a 100
    >> computers from a single CD.  Make as many copies of the CD as
    >> you want for just the cost of copying and distribute them to to
    >> the ``community'' and all those deprived office staff who never
    >> get to see the Internet.

    Joy> Sorry to say that in Sarai in spite of having Linux experts
    Joy> we find it difficult to install and use Linux. People are
    Joy> very much here who volunteered to become gini pig of Linux
    Joy> but with time they are regreting.  So just availablility of
    Joy> Linux CD without any support is same as providing lock
    Joy> without key.

Right, Linux is difficult to install and use if you're illiterate.  Or
have been turned into an illiterate by our friends in Redmond.  When
you ran into trouble did you ask questions on any mailing list?  Did
you refer to the plethora of documents in your computer?  Did you
search the Internet for answers to your questions?  Did you call
anyone you know who knows Linux, describe the problem to him/her and
ask for a solution?  Or did you just sit with hands folded, awaiting
the arrival of the magic icon on your screen which you would click to
solve all the problems of the world?

As far as I can make out you're advocating that every Linux CD be
accompanied by a bevy of experts who will patiently and systematically
guide the user through all steps of installing and using Linux.  While
we're dreaming, let's also insist that they be young, warm, willing
and wanton -- sounds like the start of a new meaningful movement.
I'll be glad to join this one, though it may cause a couple of minor
marital problems at home :)

Oh wait! now I get it: what you're complaining about is the fact that
people like to make money out of Linux.  I am a Linux consultant.  If
I fix Linux problems for my clients I charge them money.  You seem to
have something against this mode of working: not only must I give my
software and my techniques away for free (which I do anyway, but which
is meaningless and makes me a crook as per your observations above), I
must also spend my whole time supporting Linux and my software for
people without charging them any fee.  Presumably I can make enough
money to survive by cleaning bathrooms in my spare time (but only if I
didn't build them first: if I did, I must clean them for the rest of
my life for no charge).

    >> Ah, I presume that you're an active member of many User Groups
    >> and Linux/GNU-related mailing lists in India to be in a
    >> position to make such a definitive statement.  You are, aren't
    >> you?
    >> 
    >> The fight for freedom has to be fought at many levels.  I have
    >> no issues with your approach; don't damn my method just because
    >> it's different or doesn't fit into whatever -ism is the flavour
    >> of the month today.

    Joy> One thing can never be achieved by fighting is freedom, so
    Joy> isms and foundations should break down and disseminate in
    Joy> larger community.

    >> Closed minds are the biggest hurdle to individual freedom, and
    >> I grieve to see that those whom I considered my peers suffer
    >> from the same malaise that has kept this country from achieving
    >> anything except grandiose words and ideals in the past 5 1/2
    >> decades.  Anyway, let's all talk a bit more about this, since
    >> talking's just about the most productive activity that we seem
    >> to be capable of.

    Joy> That is true so Linux people should stop nagging about MS and
    Joy> do some constructive work for the community !!

Just because you choose to limit your definition of ``constructive
work'' doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to toe an arbitrary
line of your making.  I consider the work I'm doing constructive, and
whether you agree or disagree with it doesn't make an iota of
difference to me.  I could also (though I don't) consider you to be
living in a fools paradise, dreaming forlorn dreams and tilting at
imaginary windmills -- does that make your existence meaningless?
Will you stop doing what you're doing just because other people don't
consider it meaningful?  If not, please do not advocate exactly that
to others.

    Joy> Joy

Regards,

-- Raju
-- 
Raju Mathur          raju at kandalaya.org           http://kandalaya.org/