[Reader-list] Re: how to get pop3 access from gmail

[Vivek Narayanan]

This is a fascinating discussion, which has me tied me up in knots 
precisely because I can't see that there is a clear-cut position to 
take, and because many different dilemmas are entangled here.  So I have 
some contradictory questions.

At the moment, I tend to agree with Shekhar that getting Gmail, apart 
from its impressive features (which all other clients will soon have 
some version of) seems to be primarily a fashionista issue.  For 
instance, why are open source advocates also so gung ho about Gmail (as 
opposed, say, to other web-based mail programs), when in fact, as far as 
I know, Google is a rather secretive corporation when it comes to code, 
and the whole idea of Gmail is thus far about exclusivity and 
"invitations"?  The answer can only be Google's reputation as a "cool" 
company.

The privacy issue is an interesting one.  At the moment, I am still 
intrigued by Google's own statement of privacy, and the link it provides 
to an institution that studies US federal surveilance: all internet 
providers, (the latter site, whose name I can't remember, argues) have 
the ability to monitor and read their clients emails.  In this context, 
the internet service provider needs to take up the social responsibility 
of acting as an intermediary between individuals and governments on 
*behalf* of the individual-- ie. *resisting* govermental attempts to 
requisition their archives to the full extent of the law.  In an 
indirect way then, Google appears to be supporting this position, but I 
can't say for sure.  If it does actively start implementing that policy, 
then it could be good news for privacy everywhere.

This brings us to the idea of service providers.  The idea of pitting 
"distant corporations" against your loving local email provider seems to 
harbour a nostalgia for the "old days" when neighbours helped each other 
out and the postman smiled and waved on his way, etc. (The opening 
sequence of "Blue Velvet", basically.)  I personally don't think that 
local or small-scale capital is necessarily any less oppressive than 
distant capital-- it all depends-- what are the actual internet service 
providers like, and whose interests do they serve?  The idea of vsnl is 
appealing because it's state-run, and I'm instinctively all for 
state-run companies, but it could mean something very different in the 
context of a Hindutva goverment.  So-- apart from nostalgia, what really 
is the argument for going to your local server for mail as opposed to 
some more stable, likely-efficient configuration like gmail?

As an aside, Shekhar, you say:

 "I am not objecting to the many virtues of webmail vs POP3 for 
different people who are mobile, checking from cafes, and so on."

But in fact, in your first mail, you did try to establish the complete 
superiority of POP3!  That mail began as follows:

"The excitement around GMail baffles me, particularly since any form of 
web mail, no matter how sexy its feature set, cannot compare to a POP3 
mailbox used with your favourite mail client (Eudora, Mozilla, OSX Mail, 
Outlook)."

Is there a nuance I'm missing?  If I were using gmail now, I could 
easily compare all the different mails together, but since I'm not, it's 
hard to say.

Never mind that-- the most interesting thing in Shekhar's initial mail 
has not been developed, because we're getting too caught up in the 
practicality and contingency of looking at the present.  SK writes:

"Why can't we start cooperative mailbox movements, or hosting societies, 
which will get unique domains registered for people and give them out 
for free or at a nominal fee, considering the neglible costs of hosting 
mailboxes?"

Well, why can't we?  What would the feasibility of such a "collaborative 
mailbox movement" be, what would work against it, what kinds of 
challenges would it face?  I would want to see some hard imagination on 
that subject from people who are capable of such imagining.  Because I 
don't agree with Pankaj below that nothing will ever change because 
human nature is essentially evil, life is a bitch, etc.

In the face of such a possible project, discussions about Gmail or not 
Gmail, POP or WEB all seem fairly trivial to me.  And it seems to me 
that such a project would be very much within the ambit of the FLOSS 
movement, if it were actually done and made doable.

Cheers, Vivek.

Pankaj Kaushal wrote:

> Shekhar Krishnan wrote:
>
>> Dear All:
>> I think my message, being a bit of a rant, was misleading. I am not 
>> objecting to the many virtues of webmail vs POP3 for different people 
>> who are mobile, checking from cafes, and so on. What annoys the hell 
>> out of me is commercialised, free mail services like GMail, Yahoo, 
>> Hotmail, and Rediffmail, and the way in which many otherwise 
>> straight-talking people suddenly have become brand ambassadors for 
>> these companies, or 
>
>
> I resent your uncouth advice on dealing away with Webmail. To the
> average intellects rampant here, the "gospel of ignorance" seems to be
> the sage advice, but has anyone noticed that it is a rhetorical advice
> and never works?
>
>> security of any of these depends on your computing environment. Nor 
>> am I objecting to the open or closed, free or proprietary nature of 
>> the browser or mail client anyone uses to check mail. Both the 
>> browser and client I use, as well as the operating system I prefer, 
>> are semi-free, 
>
>
> What is semi-free? Apple is proprietary. full stop. No one is
> scrutinizing anyone for their OS/mailer/browser preference, Its just
> that people who talk about free speech and freedom when they themselves
> are captives under the clutches of proprietary software 'annoy the hell
> out me.'
>
>> mostly proprietary products, and it will be years before I fully 
>> switch to a FLOSS desktop and application suite, if ever. I suspect 
>> that this is the same for many of us who keep company with the 
>> movement, and make money from providing free and open source 
>> solutions. I don't like being ideological about FLOSS. My point was a 
>> rather narrow one about commercial webmail being turned into a 
>> lifestyle emblem, though my point about free beer replacing free 
>> speech points to a broader set of issues. 
>
>
> what really bakes my noodle is that you have no problem (not that you
> should) if I were using Outlook Express on windows XP to send mail from
> a @timbutoo.univ.edu address, but, it 'annoys the hell out of you' if I
> use a freely available, secure and convenient Webmail service.
>
> I don't like being ideological about corporations but, whether you like
> it or not free software is an ideology and to be a freeloader is nothing
> to be proud of. we are getting way too off topic here so i will leave it
> to that.
>
>> What is at stake in the GMail Ideology is the way in which we put 
>> trust in distant corporations rather than local service providers, in 
>> free beer rather than free speech. Is it because we often have to pay 
>> money and give time to support the latter?
>
>
> I personally, will not recommend using gmail to anyone, not because of
> any of the reasons you have cited but because, their privacy policy
> sucks and yahoo or hotmail are not any better.
>
> But getting an account from your local vendor is not any better either,
> If the cops knock at his door he will also let them into your POP/IMAP
> account and actually it will be more easy for them - than the yahoo
> account, or for that matter for a script kiddie to crack the servers of
> a local provider. I just can't even begin on the subject of how insecure
> the local providers you are blaring about really are.
>
> So if it is all about privacy then I dont see how the local vendors are
> any better than yahoo, Privacy is a very soft subject, because its based
> on trust not skill, unlike security which you can judge or get approved
> by an expert. So how is it so easy for you to trust Apple or your local
> provider than say, google, yahoo or microsoft.
>
> It is easier for people to trust an abstract corporation than a local 
> vendor, for example, people might feel more safe storing pronography 
> on their gmail account, then say on a server which is maintained by 
> someone that they personally know.
>
> Alas, it is never going to work, because, like corruption or thievery
> or mistrust, it takes a single cell to thwart the whole system, where
> society necessarily became law-laden, lock-decorated, and mistrustful,
> and that is the nature of things as it stands.
>
> Free Software movement is in opposition to all this. It is about time 
> that propogators of free speech and freedom took a look at where they 
> stand in terms of free software and add it to their artillery to fight 
> this crusade.
>
>   I'll find a day to massacre them all,
>     And raze their faction and their family...
>           William Shakespeare, in Titus Andronicus
>
> Cheers!
> Pankaj
> -- 
> ( 2b || !2b)
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-- 
Vivek Narayanan

The Sarai Programme
Centre for the Study of Developing Societies