[Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered ....

[TaraPrakash]

Well, I sincerely wish I had a jot of Shuddha's patience in me. I can't read 
some of these mails, let alone respond.
And of course eloquence as well. I wish, I could respond in such a cool 
manner to some of these mails.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "S.Fatima" <sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in>
To: <shuddha at sarai.net>; "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
Cc: <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered ....


> Dear Pawan and others.
> Firstly, I want to thank and salute Shuddha for
> speaking on behalf of all the "hollow intellectuals".
> Pawan, you must realize that Shuddha is not taking
> your posts personally but rather speaking on behalf of
> many of us. No one else seems to have the patience to
> go through your endless barrage of mails and reply so
> meticulously and thoroughly. And its not just your
> ideology that one has to deal with - it is the style
> and shallowness of your posts that one has to answer.
> And no one else has been able to deal with that better
> than Shuddha.
>
> I really think that you have no concrete answer to
> give about Shuddha's Kashmir's iconoclasm mail - that
> was the greatest challange posed to you and you have
> failed to respond. We ae still waiting for an equally
> strong response to that from you. I don't think it was
> a challenge posed by Shuddha personally, but on behalf
> of many of us, and we are proud of that...
>
> SF
>
> (P.S.: I condemn all acts of injustice and brutality
> meted out by the Saudi govt.)
>
>
>
> --- shuddha at sarai.net wrote:
>
>> Dear Pawan,
>>
>> Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply.
>>
>> 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you
>> is the mindless energy
>> you display in promoting your agenda. The list
>> requires regular detoxes
>> after your postings, and I find myself taking on
>> part of that task (along
>> with many others)  whenever I think it becomes
>> necessary. But do not
>> mistake this willingness with the fact that I have
>> nothing better to do.
>>
>> 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious
>> philosophical and
>> ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego,
>> that comes between me
>> and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing)
>> against the military
>> occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not
>> made for the sake of the
>> comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to
>> contribute to a level
>> of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen
>> (and everyone else) should
>> have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because
>> the Indian state's
>> violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of
>> Indian citizens. I for one,
>> refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is
>> simply unacceptable to
>> me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from
>> my understanding of the
>> ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear
>> as a citizen, and more
>> importantly, as a human being.
>>
>> 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against
>> 'pseudo secularism' and
>> 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow
>> postings where you are
>> exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail,
>> you turn to ad hominem
>> attacks. This is a well established pattern by now.
>> All we need to do in
>> order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns
>> in the archive of this
>> list with patience.
>>
>> 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting
>> on iconoclasm in
>> Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a
>> single 'google citation'.
>> Every argument was backed by a quote, in most
>> instances, extracts from the
>> original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading
>> Rajtarangini, and a few
>> other books that were recommended by none other than
>> the venerable Rashneek
>> Kher, along with other primary and secondary
>> sources, all of which had
>> elaborate and precise citation. The history of
>> iconoclasm in Kashmir was
>> demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage
>> than the advent of Islam
>> in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated
>> with quotations from
>> sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they
>> were not from google.
>>
>> Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm
>> may predate the invention
>> of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a
>> plausible and detailed
>> counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That
>> kind of 'familiarity',
>> which insists that you know better simply because of
>> your ethnicity, comes
>> cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little
>> harder than simply
>> wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try
>> and make an argument,
>> and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will
>> be exposed repeatedly as
>> a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not
>> prepared to take the
>> trouble to substantiate what he says. An
>> intellectual who hides behind the
>> mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic
>> salvos in public.
>>
>> 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be.
>> Whenever you, or anyone
>> else make incorrect statements about people's
>> biographies and their
>> opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the
>> speculation that - I
>> belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of
>> organization" on a public list,
>> you will be held accountable for your statements. I
>> do not confuse action
>> against defamation and libel with a call for
>> censorship, nor should you,
>> nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at
>> this juncture is
>> totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made
>> statements about the
>> biographies and lives of actual living individuals.
>> I am not an admirer of
>> Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should
>> have the freedom to
>> practice his art work unhindered. The court cases
>> against him, which are
>> all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities,
>> betray the ignorance of
>> the litigants about their own tradition more than
>> they do anything else.
>> Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is
>> nothing more than a
>> travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of
>> Hindu culture in those who
>> litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All
>> of you, badly need an
>> education, most of all about the things you claim to
>> uphold.
>>
>> Further, If the difference between a warning not to
>> indulge in libel or
>> defamation and the call for censorship is not
>> transparent to you, then I am
>> happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit.
>> However, that might be very
>> boring for most other people on this list as they
>> all seem to have a
>> greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to
>> muster.
>>
>> 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write
>> ........and wont dare to write
>> the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual
>> again....."
>>
>> Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise
>> have had of your weak
>> attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let
>> me try and take your
>> statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you
>> were to stop making
>> baseless statements on this list because of the fact
>> that your arguments
>> are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this
>> list's policy of being
>> an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let
>> me remind you that I was
>> not taking objection at the terms "pseudo
>> secularist" or "hollow
>> intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions,
>> and you are free to have
>> them and to advertise them from every rooftop.
>> Opinions are not facts. They
>> represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here
>> with facts, and your
>> statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to
>> your saying that I was
>> a member of some "ML type organization". Now either
>> I am, or I am not, a
>> member of an "ML type organization". I am either a
>> sympathizer or not a
>> sympathizer of  the idoelogy of an "ML type of
>> organization". One of these
>> statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not.
>> Neither a member, nor a
>> sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a
>> member of something
>> that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And
>> that is why you are
>> vulnerable to the charge of defamation.
>>
>> In the long run, the most effective antidote against
>> the most prejudiced
>> opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a
>> series of open and clear
>> challenges, which can take place only in a situation
>> where the prejudiced
>> statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being
>> 'censored'.
>>
>> You have been here, you have had your say, and you
>> have been exposed. If in
>> the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it
>> only goes to show that
>> free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation
>> of criticality, is in
>> the long run -  the most effective measure against
>> the likes of you. I was
>> certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you
>> for having demonstrated,
>> once again, that this is true.
>>
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>      Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to 
> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>