[Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel

[Partha Dasgupta]

Simple.

Try using an argument based on fact and logic - not abuses and threats as
you seem to be using.

Isn't that what you learnt in school? I did, and it's worked for me till
now.

Rgds, Partha
........................

On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How can You expect me to make Morons understand.......too much of a
> herculean task.
>
> On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Pawan,
> >
> > If you're asking what I understand from your word 'exile', the answer is
> > that realising that your argument has no basis in logic or reason or
> > fact
> > you've taken the easy way out and ducked the issue.
> >
> > In all the exchanges we've had, you haven't been able to support any
> > issue by
> > fact or reason and take refuge in platitudes.
> >
> > Rgds, Partha
> >
> > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > Partha ,
> > >
> > > Thats your idea of understanding.
> > >
> > > What did you understand by my refering the word "Exile?"
> > >
> > > Pawan
> > >
> > >
> > >  On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Pawan,
> > > >
> > > > You're welcome to withdraw, as that's a personal decision, just as
> > > > joining this list was a personal decision.
> > > >
> > > > However, don't you think that actually having a point of view that
> > > > is logically supported by facts and decisions a more sensible way to have a
> > > > discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Any how, that's your choice. If 'exile' is what you want, you're
> > > > welcome.
> > > >
> > > > At least you considered the Sarai post enough of a 'home' to feel
> > > > 'exiled'.
> > > >
> > > > Rgds, Partha
> > > > ..........
> > > >
> > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > As of now I am in an imposed Exile . An exile imposed by those who
> > > > > welcomed the Jihadis.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Pawan,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Interesting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You say that the 'people of Kashmir welcome him with...'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are you not counting yourself as a 'person of Kashmir'? And if
> > > > > > you are, why do you have any 'individual pain'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > More importantly, what does this have to do with Junaid's post
> > > > > > which talks about the construction of the armed struggle?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rgds, Partha
> > > > > > .........................
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40
> > > > > > > kashmiri pandits
> > > > > > > come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands
> > > > > > > and distribute
> > > > > > > sweet.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively
> > > > > > > go ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All in the name of Supreme.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pawan
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid <justjunaid at rediffmail.com >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and
> > > > > > > Aditya Kauls
> > > > > > > > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the
> > > > > > > voice of state,
> > > > > > > > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State
> > > > > > > says "My violence
> > > > > > > > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges
> > > > > > > this right, that
> > > > > > > > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal,
> > > > > > > fit only to be
> > > > > > > > eliminated through the laws that I make."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of
> > > > > > > the state,
> > > > > > > > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if
> > > > > > > someone punctures his
> > > > > > > > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the
> > > > > > > legitimacy of the
> > > > > > > > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people
> > > > > > > who don't accept
> > > > > > > > the state's "natural" logic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian
> > > > > > > state, its main
> > > > > > > > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are
> > > > > > > mistakenly called,
> > > > > > > > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants,
> > > > > > > "civilians", Indian
> > > > > > > > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on
> > > > > > > political issues.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of
> > > > > > > seeking justice
> > > > > > > > from Indian state, people come together to forge a
> > > > > > > solidarity, they bear
> > > > > > > > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal
> > > > > > > killings when
> > > > > > > > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of
> > > > > > > five Kashmiris,
> > > > > > > > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing
> > > > > > > to happen to
> > > > > > > > themselves?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed
> > > > > > > Kashmiris, was
> > > > > > > > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident
> > > > > > > in the way
> > > > > > > > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave
> > > > > > > away part of their
> > > > > > > > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their
> > > > > > > trade),
> > > > > > > > participated in popular protests on the call from militants,
> > > > > > > gave shelter
> > > > > > > > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals
> > > > > > > for militants, and
> > > > > > > > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands
> > > > > > > of Indian army.
> > > > > > > > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation,
> > > > > > > their freedom
> > > > > > > > fighters, not brigands or criminals.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian
> > > > > > > soldiers. Like
> > > > > > > > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian
> > > > > > > soldiers. Kashmiris have
> > > > > > > > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation:
> > > > > > > unlawful,
> > > > > > > > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't
> > > > > > > endorse or
> > > > > > > > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently
> > > > > > > opposing Indian rule
> > > > > > > > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the
> > > > > > > movement, a vast
> > > > > > > > majority of Kashmiris declared their position.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed
> > > > > > > or unarmed,
> > > > > > > > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal
> > > > > > > aspect, the Indian
> > > > > > > > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or
> > > > > > > unarmed, are
> > > > > > > > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik
> > > > > > > is hanged, then
> > > > > > > > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of
> > > > > > > militants should
> > > > > > > > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then
> > > > > > > Indian soldiers
> > > > > > > > should say sorry to Kashmir.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual
> > > > > > > crimes. As Indian
> > > > > > > > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual
> > > > > > > crimes by
> > > > > > > > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen
> > > > > > > as such.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am
> > > > > > > against the
> > > > > > > > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I
> > > > > > > especially
> > > > > > > > despise this appropriation in occupied territories.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Junaid
> > > > > > > > _________________________________________
> > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe:
> > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > > > > > > List archive:
> > > > > > > &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > > > > > _________________________________________
> > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe:
> > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > > > > > List archive:
> > > > > > > &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132)
> > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132)
> > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132)
> > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka
> >
>
>


-- 
Partha Dasgupta (9811047132)
http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka