[Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION

[Rahul Asthana]

Hi Vishal,
That was a great post.I mean the original one.I find
my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to
passionate people in general and ladies in
particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of
"hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again.
Now,many people think that A united and independent
Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to
this 60 year old dispute.
This is a very  appreciable sentiment, but I dont
think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but who
are the stakeholders in such type of a
solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required here.
What I or you think should happen, would not affect
reality one bit.
Nations dont work on such canonical moral
principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution
of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with
realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from
an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As
for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN
reiterates a policy of non interference and
bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the
other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country
bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism
etc. 
Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India 
a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the
North East,
b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India
would not be comfortable with that going in a
different country.
c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to
try to usurp any further territory.
d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a
disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go
soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time
to get elected again.
So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint
gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it
may have to do or it may have to tolerate. 
I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is
the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in
wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what
interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those
Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether
there is an internal political spin to it.
Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region
with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign
state,it will also have problems with its non uniform
demographics. There would always be some sort of
strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an
option would only guarantee the continuation of some
kind of trouble in the region.
So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost
impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would
not allow it to happen,without consideration for
Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests.
Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in
the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris.
Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense
expenditure). A solution is a win win option for
everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and
pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their
idealism;because its a matter of life and death for
many people.
And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this
holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and
come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to
everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their
stated positions.
By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I
know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a
Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine
theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion
would have been the same.
regards
Rahul





--- Vishal Rawlley <vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Pawan,
> 
> I agree with you somewhat...
> 
> Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis.
> -Ralph Waldo Emerson
> 
> Those who have suffered can speak directly form
> their heart, without needing
> to refer to historical texts and court documents.
> However, getting emotional
> can also blind ones thinking. To a mother whose
> decent and noble army
> officer son has been shot down while waiting at a
> bus stop (along with other
> innocent bystanders) cannot be persuaded that the
> perpetrators were "freedom
> fighters" and not terrorists and that her son was an
> "enemy agent" in a
> "forcibly occupied land". I am assuming for
> arguments sake that it is true
> that Kashmir is "occupied territory" and the armed
> conflict is between
> "freedom fighters" and a "brutal army".
> 
> But, Pawan, could it also be that this assumption is
> actually the fact?!
> Many are enraged that their army officer brethren
> are being made sacrificial
> lambs in this war, when the only solution might be
> to withdraw and talk
> across the table?? Could it be that the Kashmiri
> Pandits are being used as
> pawns in a bigger game? It seems to me that the
> Kashmiri Pandits are more
> with Delhi now than with Kashmir. Does Kashmir have
> a genuine reason to
> fight with the state or no??? Are you willing to
> fight this for the sake of
> all Kashmiris? Or is this just a Kashmiri Muslim's
> war?
> 
> Please ask yourself these questions and read the
> arguments posted by others
> carefully and dispassionately and you may derive
> something out of it. They
> you can direct your anger in the right direction. Do
> not get baited by
> others at the slightest provocation. Most people are
> interested to see the
> land and honour of ALL Kashmiris restored to them
> and put an end to the
> blood bath. These people are interested in this much
> more than forcibly
> keeping Kashmir with India at the cost of many
> lives.
> 
> I request you to take a break and do some
> introspection. Your opponents can
> often give to more insights than your fan followers.
> You may end up
> realising that it is the Indian politicians that are
> actually your main
> enemy. You may also realise that you should shake
> that Yasin Malik's hand
> when he is offering it to you. You may feel much
> better after this. You
> could also start speaking to your Muslim Kashmiri
> brothers and sisters about
> fighting the injustice to Kashmir without resorting
> to terror. You could
> take the example of the Tibetan movement. The
> misguided need to be helped
> and this is what your cause perhaps should be.
> 
> Whatever you decide is your wish, but hate mails to
> the reader-list is not
> helping in any way yaar!
> 
> Best,
> Vishal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > hello Vishal ,
> >
> > I appreciate your mail.
> >
> > However I must say that people like Shuddha  twist
> and mix up the words to
> > present it to support their ideas . And their
> discussion on a subject about
> > which they have only "read" and not "suffered " or
> "experienced" speaks a
> > lot about their intellectualism.
> >
> > Pawan
> >
> >
> >  On 9/14/07, Vishal Rawlley <
> vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > No, I don't think we need people to purge and
> purify this space. Jane do
> > > yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed
> shit sweepers should
> > > absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more
> shit around than wiping it
> > > off.
> > > Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one
> and see - its all over.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would imagine that the readers of this list
> are intelligent enough and
> > >
> > > mature enough to decide which arguments to
> purchase and which to ignore.
> > >
> > > Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by
> itself, its biodegradable
> > > after
> > > all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better
> argument or a different
> > > viewpoint or more information on an issue,
> please do share it with us:
> > > the
> > > readers. There is no point aiming it at people
> whose intelligence and
> > > logic
> > > you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments
> with "I do not wish to
> > > ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience,
> [or else]…" when you do put
> > >
> > > forward your point
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It seems to me that the volunteer toilet
> cleaners are being
> > > opportunistic in
> > > using the counter arguments to the crappy
> comments only to brandish
> > > their
> > > own superior wit and wisdom. A
> self-congratulatory club is so boring, an
> > >
> > > utter waste (pun intended). You guys have
> created the ARKP hydra, fed it
> > > and
> > > buffered it and now it looms like a demon,
> foaming and fuming, over all
> > > of
> > > us.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti
> and now some Kashmiri
> > > pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this
> list, could have been such
> > > a
> > > good opportunity to converse with them. These
> people represent the
> > > viewpoint
> > > of certain masses and are not just standalone
> lunatics. Their different
> > > viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we
> address that? If only
> > > we
> > > were not so insensitive and didn't act
> prudishly, we could have engaged
> > > them
> > > more positively. Expecting carefully constructed
> arguments from them is
> > > futile. There was no need to be baited by them
> every time they acted
> > > provocatively. One could have ignored them –
> simple solution. But if you
> > >
> > > must take on the tough task of correcting their
> prejudice then
> > > understand
> > > first what you are trying to take on. It could
> be a very useful
> > > exercise. I
> > > personally do not have the where withal to do
> so, but if your toilet
> > > cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless
> patience, show some
> > > love,
> > > some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then
> perhaps they would respond.
> > > Some of them are quite loveable and very human.
> They 
=== message truncated ===





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