[Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal

[Rahul Asthana]

Dear Vishal,

Actually,some emails from the list are going to
trash.Thats why I missed your email.Sorry about that.
Please find my replies inline.
>However, it does not
> necessarily mean that everyone
> has to agree with you. Other people have a right to
> their own viewpoints
> based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your
> views.
I am not here to convince or defeat someone in
discussion.I am here to discuss,thats why I am talking
with you.I have tried to maintain this tone and will
continue to do so.
> Many successive Indian governments have tried the
> policy that you are
> propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now
> what to do? What is the
> correct solution? Can you put it down step by step,
> just like you put down
> all the problems point by point?
Indian government is not trying for a solution.They
are happy in a status quo.After all,in a democracy
every party wants to save their kursi.Why would they
take a decision that can jeopardise it? So any
solution has to be initiated by the biggest
stakeholders,the kashmiris.I would love to brainstorm
for the correct solution.I will put forward my views
on this when I have more time,in a week or two.
> Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution,
> which was: withdrawal
> of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian
> and under Pakistani
> occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space
> to decide - after
> considering all the problems that you mentioned -
> whether they want to be
> independent or be with either country (entirely or
> partly, as in partly
> autonomous).
I have one very big problem with this solution.This is
too optimistic and unrealistic.We can keep writing
emails and discussing and signing online petitions,but
there will be no result.There has been no change in
the last 60 years and I do not see any indication in
the foreseeable future.The reason is what I listed in
my earlier email.India has too much at stake in
Kashmir.It just cant\wont withdraw.

I will write a more detailed email about the solution
in some time.

Regards
Rahul


--- Vishal Rawlley <vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Rahul,
> 
> After you posted your problems with
> self-determination in Kashmir, I had
> replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a
> question: we now know the
> problems you have pointed out, but we want to know
> your proposed solution,
> can you post your answer please. Thank you.
> 
> >>
> In response to Rahul I had said:
> 
> Very well said. You have a right to your own
> opinions and have provided good
> reasoning for it too. However, it does not
> necessarily mean that everyone
> has to agree with you. Other people have a right to
> their own viewpoints
> based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your
> views. If you are
> convinced that your views are superior than others,
> then its their loss that
> they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes
> to decide the best
> viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep
> refining your arguments.
> Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who
> won't listen.
> 
> Many successive Indian governments have tried the
> policy that you are
> propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now
> what to do? What is the
> correct solution? Can you put it down step by step,
> just like you put down
> all the problems point by point?
> 
> Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution,
> which was: withdrawal
> of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian
> and under Pakistani
> occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space
> to decide - after
> considering all the problems that you mentioned -
> whether they want to be
> independent or be with either country (entirely or
> partly, as in partly
> autonomous).
> 
> I do not know this if solution of theirs will work,
> what do you think? Maybe
> this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and
> they might kill each
> other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at
> least they will not be
> able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems
> better than wasting our
> money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us
> forcefully.
> 
> Do you have a better plan? Tell us please.
> 
> -Vishal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> > I do not see the email shveta replied to in the
> > list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my
> > response to Vishal and it has my argument as to
> why
> > the nation may resort to censorship in some
> cases-to
> > be specific,why it would censor something that
> > promotes self determination in Kashmir.
> > Here goes again.If it was already posted to the
> > list,my apologies.
> >
> > Hi Vishal,
> > That was a great post.I mean the original one.I
> find
> > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect
> to
> > passionate people in general and ladies in
> > particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of
> > "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again.
> > Now,many people think that A united and
> independent
> > Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just
> solution to
> > this 60 year old dispute.
> > This is a very  appreciable sentiment, but I dont
> > think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but
> who
> > are the stakeholders in such type of a
> > solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required
> here.
> > What I or you think should happen, would not
> affect
> > reality one bit.
> > Nations dont work on such canonical moral
> > principles.For getting anywhere near to the
> solution
> > of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip
> with
> > realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit
> from
> > an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir
> itself.As
> > for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN
> > reiterates a policy of non interference and
> > bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb
> the
> > other party to come to a solution. Nor can any
> country
> > bleed the other to a point of submission by
> terrorism
> > etc.
> > Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India
> > a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in
> the
> > North East,
> > b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and
> India
> > would not be comfortable with that going in a
> > different country.
> > c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not
> to
> > try to usurp any further territory.
> > d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a
> > disputed territory and if any party is perceived
> to go
> > soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult
> time
> > to get elected again.
> > So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint
> > gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting
> it
> > may have to do or it may have to tolerate.
> > I dont know much about Pakistani politics but
> there is
> > the one water treaty,for them to have reservations
> in
> > wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what
> > interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those
> > Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or
> whether
> > there is an internal political spin to it.
> > Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked
> region
> > with scant resources. If it does become a
> sovereign
> > state,it will also have problems with its non
> uniform
> > demographics. There would always be some sort of
> > strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour
> of an
> > option would only guarantee the continuation of
> some
> > kind of trouble in the region.
> > So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost
> > impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally,
> would
> > not allow it to happen,without consideration for
> > Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests.
> > Not to say that all the people dont have a stake
> in
> > the solution of the problem.Most of all the
> Kashmiris.
> > Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense
> > expenditure). A solution is a win win option for
> > everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic
> and
> > pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their
> > idealism;because its a matter of life and death
> for
> > many people.
> > And,above all , all concerned parties should drop
> this
> > holier-than-thou charade of self determination,
> and
> > come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to
> > everyone,and everyone will have to budge from
> their
> > stated positions.
> > By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as
> I
> > know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been
> a
> >
>
Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine
> > theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my
> opinion
> > would have been the same.
> > regards
> 
=== message truncated ===




       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz