[Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal

[Vishal Rawlley]

Dear Rahul,

Thank you for your reply. I look forward to your detailed  response when you
can.

Best,
Vishal


On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Vishal,
>
> Actually,some emails from the list are going to
> trash.Thats why I missed your email.Sorry about that.
> Please find my replies inline.
> >However, it does not
> > necessarily mean that everyone
> > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to
> > their own viewpoints
> > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your
> > views.
> I am not here to convince or defeat someone in
> discussion.I am here to discuss,thats why I am talking
> with you.I have tried to maintain this tone and will
> continue to do so.
> > Many successive Indian governments have tried the
> > policy that you are
> > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now
> > what to do? What is the
> > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step,
> > just like you put down
> > all the problems point by point?
> Indian government is not trying for a solution.They
> are happy in a status quo.After all,in a democracy
> every party wants to save their kursi.Why would they
> take a decision that can jeopardise it? So any
> solution has to be initiated by the biggest
> stakeholders,the kashmiris.I would love to brainstorm
> for the correct solution.I will put forward my views
> on this when I have more time,in a week or two.
> > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution,
> > which was: withdrawal
> > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian
> > and under Pakistani
> > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space
> > to decide - after
> > considering all the problems that you mentioned -
> > whether they want to be
> > independent or be with either country (entirely or
> > partly, as in partly
> > autonomous).
> I have one very big problem with this solution.This is
> too optimistic and unrealistic.We can keep writing
> emails and discussing and signing online petitions,but
> there will be no result.There has been no change in
> the last 60 years and I do not see any indication in
> the foreseeable future.The reason is what I listed in
> my earlier email.India has too much at stake in
> Kashmir.It just cant\wont withdraw.
>
> I will write a more detailed email about the solution
> in some time.
>
> Regards
> Rahul
>
>
> --- Vishal Rawlley <vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Rahul,
> >
> > After you posted your problems with
> > self-determination in Kashmir, I had
> > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a
> > question: we now know the
> > problems you have pointed out, but we want to know
> > your proposed solution,
> > can you post your answer please. Thank you.
> >
> > >>
> > In response to Rahul I had said:
> >
> > Very well said. You have a right to your own
> > opinions and have provided good
> > reasoning for it too. However, it does not
> > necessarily mean that everyone
> > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to
> > their own viewpoints
> > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your
> > views. If you are
> > convinced that your views are superior than others,
> > then its their loss that
> > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes
> > to decide the best
> > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep
> > refining your arguments.
> > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who
> > won't listen.
> >
> > Many successive Indian governments have tried the
> > policy that you are
> > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now
> > what to do? What is the
> > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step,
> > just like you put down
> > all the problems point by point?
> >
> > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution,
> > which was: withdrawal
> > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian
> > and under Pakistani
> > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space
> > to decide - after
> > considering all the problems that you mentioned -
> > whether they want to be
> > independent or be with either country (entirely or
> > partly, as in partly
> > autonomous).
> >
> > I do not know this if solution of theirs will work,
> > what do you think? Maybe
> > this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and
> > they might kill each
> > other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at
> > least they will not be
> > able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems
> > better than wasting our
> > money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us
> > forcefully.
> >
> > Do you have a better plan? Tell us please.
> >
> > -Vishal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > > I do not see the email shveta replied to in the
> > > list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my
> > > response to Vishal and it has my argument as to
> > why
> > > the nation may resort to censorship in some
> > cases-to
> > > be specific,why it would censor something that
> > > promotes self determination in Kashmir.
> > > Here goes again.If it was already posted to the
> > > list,my apologies.
> > >
> > > Hi Vishal,
> > > That was a great post.I mean the original one.I
> > find
> > > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect
> > to
> > > passionate people in general and ladies in
> > > particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of
> > > "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again.
> > > Now,many people think that A united and
> > independent
> > > Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just
> > solution to
> > > this 60 year old dispute.
> > > This is a very  appreciable sentiment, but I dont
> > > think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but
> > who
> > > are the stakeholders in such type of a
> > > solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required
> > here.
> > > What I or you think should happen, would not
> > affect
> > > reality one bit.
> > > Nations dont work on such canonical moral
> > > principles.For getting anywhere near to the
> > solution
> > > of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip
> > with
> > > realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit
> > from
> > > an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir
> > itself.As
> > > for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN
> > > reiterates a policy of non interference and
> > > bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb
> > the
> > > other party to come to a solution. Nor can any
> > country
> > > bleed the other to a point of submission by
> > terrorism
> > > etc.
> > > Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India
> > > a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in
> > the
> > > North East,
> > > b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and
> > India
> > > would not be comfortable with that going in a
> > > different country.
> > > c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not
> > to
> > > try to usurp any further territory.
> > > d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a
> > > disputed territory and if any party is perceived
> > to go
> > > soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult
> > time
> > > to get elected again.
> > > So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint
> > > gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting
> > it
> > > may have to do or it may have to tolerate.
> > > I dont know much about Pakistani politics but
> > there is
> > > the one water treaty,for them to have reservations
> > in
> > > wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what
> > > interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those
> > > Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or
> > whether
> > > there is an internal political spin to it.
> > > Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked
> > region
> > > with scant resources. If it does become a
> > sovereign
> > > state,it will also have problems with its non
> > uniform
> > > demographics. There would always be some sort of
> > > strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour
> > of an
> > > option would only guarantee the continuation of
> > some
> > > kind of trouble in the region.
> > > So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost
> > > impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally,
> > would
> > > not allow it to happen,without consideration for
> > > Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests.
> > > Not to say that all the people dont have a stake
> > in
> > > the solution of the problem.Most of all the
> > Kashmiris.
> > > Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense
> > > expenditure). A solution is a win win option for
> > > everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic
> > and
> > > pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their
> > > idealism;because its a matter of life and death
> > for
> > > many people.
> > > And,above all , all concerned parties should drop
> > this
> > > holier-than-thou charade of self determination,
> > and
> > > come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to
> > > everyone,and everyone will have to budge from
> > their
> > > stated positions.
> > > By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as
> > I
> > > know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been
> > a
> > >
> >
> Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine
> > > theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my
> > opinion
> > > would have been the same.
> > > regards
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>
>
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