[Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal

[Pawan Durani]

Zainab ,

I was just asking which election did Rajiv Gandhi rig in 1980 ? I have
missed something terribly which has happened in 1980 and if you can
enlighten me , i may add up something to my knowledge.

Pawan


On 9/18/07, Zainab Bawa <zainabbawa at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Pawan,
>
> Your reading and interpretation of history and my
> reading and interpretation of history differ and that
> is very clear from the discussions that we have had
> and seen on this list so far. Thus far, you have not
> attempted to see my point of view and I have also not
> attempted to see much of your point of view because
> the fundamental differences in our ideologies is that
> for you, the nation is an important determining force
> of your life and you see it as bringing stability and
> order whereas for me, the nation cannot determine my
> life for me and I see its attempts at bring stability
> and order laced with violence in certain situations.
> Therefore, I am in no position to enlighten you.
>
> However, I want to take this opportunity to lighten
> myself by admitting that I am feeling very
> uncomfortable and queasy discussing 'solutions' 'for'
> 'Kashmir'. I believe that ultimately, their voices are
> the legitimate ones and the most I can do is to offer
> my support rather than try to speak for them. I think
> what also alienates Kashmiris is the attempt on the
> part of 'us' 'Indians' to try to speak for them rather
> than them speaking for themselves!
>
> Best,
>
> Zainab
>
> P.S. Pawan, you have still not dug out that email for
> me. I am still waiting ...
>
>
>
>
> --- Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Zainab,
> >
> > Which election did Rajiv Gandhi rig in 1980 ? Plz
> > enlighten me !
> >
> > Pawan
> >
> >
> > On 9/18/07, Zainab Bawa <zainabbawa at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Rahul,
> > >
> > > Thanks for responding. This is my personal view
> > that
> > > when it comes to historical wrongs, one cannot
> > simply
> > > 'jump' to a solution without a certain process of
> > > acknowledgment of wrongs and forgiveness. A live
> > > example was the Truths Commission in South Africa.
> > > Now, someone might say that that was a case of
> > racism
> > > and therefore it does not apply to our situation.
> > My
> > > disagreement on this is simply that if two decades
> > of
> > > wrongs and violence have been inflicted on Kashmir
> > and
> > > Kashmiris by the Indian army and the government of
> > > India, you cannot say 'forget it, let's talk of
> > > solutions'. It is like the situation in Gujarat
> > where
> > > the Modi government did not acknowledge the wrongs
> > it
> > > had committed and after the violence, 'it was
> > business
> > > as usual'. In this case, the memories of violence
> > and
> > > injustice remain repressed and you never know when
> > > there will be another outburst! What solution are
> > we
> > > then talking about?
> > >
> > > Acknowledging wrongs is the first step towards a
> > > solution. Once the Indian government acknowledges
> > what
> > > it has done in Kashmir, it is also sending a
> > message
> > > which says, 'we are willing to listen and talk it
> > out
> > > sincerely and see how best we can resolve the
> > > situation.' I don't think an apology in this case
> > is a
> > > mere stunt. It is a clear political statement.
> > >
> > > On the issue of freedom for Kashmir and pragmatism
> > and
> > > romanticism, the point is that for our individual
> > > lives, we decide ideals and struggle to achieve
> > them
> > > despite people around us calling us mad or
> > dreamers.
> > > But when it comes to a people who have clear
> > > justification for wanting independence, what is it
> > > that leads us to say, 'be practical man!'? Why
> > cannot
> > > a community of people demand the ideal? And what
> > is
> > > our fear of accepting that as a standard? Is the
> > fear
> > > that there will be more violence and bloodhsed and
> > > more poets like Aga? If that is the fear, then we
> > are
> > > still going round and round the bush and a
> > solution in
> > > this case (i.e. denying a group of people their
> > right
> > > to aspire for the ideal), we are talking of
> > something
> > > similar to what Rajiv Gandhi did back in the 1980s
> > by
> > > rigging the elections.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Zainab
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Rahul,
> > > >
> > > > What you've said in the past few posts makes
> > > > admirable sense. For a solution
> > > > to work, ALL the stakeholders have to be
> > involved,
> > > > else the left out party
> > > > will remain in a state of denial against the
> > > > agreement.
> > > >
> > > > And I certainly agree that there's been more
> > than
> > > > enough death and
> > > > suffering, which needs to be stopped.
> > > >
> > > > Look forward to your detailed mail.
> > > >
> > > > Rgds, Partha
> > > > ...............
> > > >
> > > > On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana
> > <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Zainab,
> > > > > The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I
> > was
> > > > > trying to delineate the stakeholders in the
> > > > valley.
> > > > > I don't hold the view that all resistance to
> > > > > occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I
> > > > agree
> > > > > that there is state sponsored terrorism.
> > > > > I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats
> > why
> > > > I
> > > > > did not take part in that debate.It does not
> > > > matter to
> > > > > me who apologized to whom or not;and it does
> > not
> > > > > matter to the people who get killed and raped.
> > > > > Now your third point.Please find my reply
> > inline.
> > > > > I don't mean to get into a
> > > > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of
> > > > view,
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for
> > the
> > > > > > ideal?
> > > > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid
> > to
> > > > > > aspire
> > > > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this
> > world
> > > > be
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > very average/substandard place to live in?
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't you think you are being reductionist
> > > > here?Any
> > > > > idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not
> > exist
> > > > in a
> > > > > vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for
> > the
> > > > heck
> > > > > of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be
> > > > highfalutin
> > > > > about it.Its a matter of people getting
> > killed.If
> > > > your
> > > > > romanticism gives the world one more poet like
> > > > Agha
> > > > > Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the
> > way,and my
> > > > > pragmatism gives me a new generation that can
> > grow
> > > > up
> > > > > in a non-police state;which would you prefer?
> > > > > Lets talk in terms of whats
> > plausible;achievable
> > > > in
> > > > > the short term;isn't 60 years time enough?
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > Rahul
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Zainab Bawa <zainabbawa at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Rahul,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One of the problems in our imagination of
> > 'the
> > > > > > situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute
> > all
> > > > > > violence to Pakistan which is really not the
> > > > whole
> > > > > > picture. The Indian government carries out
> > > > > > state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I
> > think
> > > > it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > important to consider this when we
> > discussion
> > > > 'the
> > > > > > situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to
> > 'the
> > > > > > problem'. Just as some people want Yasin
> > Malik
> > > > to
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> Zainab Bawa
> Mumbai
>
> www.xanga.com/citybytes
>
>
>
>
>
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