[Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 61, Issue 59

Sun Aug 17 23:10:02 IST 2008

I agree with Shivam that video is definitely provocative to say the least,
but that is most expected after the recent theatre in valley.  I believe
that ones who occupied secular space played dangerously and gave enough
ground to these waiting fellow.

I find this post by Abhay worth reading in this context.

 http://nirmal-anand.blogspot.com/2008/08/blog-post_16.html
<http://nirmal-anand.blogspot.com/2008/08/blog-post_16.html>

Vijender

On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 10:03 PM, <reader-list-request at sarai.net> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Gun Salutes for August 15
>      ( Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् )
>   2. Re: Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath (Prabhakar Singh)
>   3. Re: Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath (Shuddhabrata Sengupta)
>   4. Re: Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
>      ( Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् )
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" <mail at shivamvij.com>
> To: "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:45:39 +0530
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gun Salutes for August 15
> You obviously understand that that statement is rhetorical, and you
> know what it is trying to say. If only you could go past your ow
> rhetoric...
>
> On 8/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
> > :)
> >
> > On 8/17/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Yes , they are . For once they are telling a truth...for a change
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 9:35 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <
> mail at shivamvij.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Say that in Srinagar to a shikawala or a taxi driver or a shopkeeper
> > > > and you know what you will hear?
> > > >
> > > > "We are all terorrists here."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > best
> > > > shivam
> > > >
> > > > On 8/17/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Yeah ...i agree .Geelani is a terrorist.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 9:21 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
> > > <mail at shivamvij.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Pawan bhai, you might want to read my reply again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While Geelani's Pak inclinations are well known, he is not the
> only
> > > > > > leader, his is not he only view. Even he has been forced to tone
> hem
> > > > > > down over the years because public sentiment is for azadi. And if
> you
> > > > > > talk to people in Srinagar, they will often tell you that the
> Pakistan
> > > > > > bogey is often an act of provocation, and for various reasons
> most
> > > > > > Kashmiris don't trust Pakistan, don't see that as an option.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Okay, let's stop debating this how about a referendum?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And the Kashmir azadi movement has its share of communal elements
> but
> > > > > > to equate Geelani with Advani or Modi is a bit too much. I am not
> > > > > > getting into the chap act of body counts...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > best
> > > > > > shivam
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 8/17/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Shivam,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Make no mistake , that Kashmir "Azadi" agitation is no less
> > > dangerous
> > > > > than
> > > > > > > an Al Qaida or a Talibani Movement.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What do you mean by "Pakitsan Se rishta Kya...la illa illa laa
> "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And Geelani saying "Jeeve Jeeve Pakistan"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kashmir so called Azaadi struggle has been the most dangerous
> and
> > > > > communal
> > > > > > > movement which has effected even the world super powers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For more info log on www.ikashmir.net
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pawan
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 9:03 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
> > > > > <mail at shivamvij.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Dear Sonia,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is not the first time you are equating the azadi
> movement in
> > > > > > > > Kashmir with the Hindutva movement. While Shuddha has already
> > > laboured
> > > > > > > > over the diference in the two cases, I want to add that this
> is a
> > > > > > > > dangerously sweeping comparison, and that you can go only so
> far
> > > with
> > > > > > > > it. This generalised comparison helps you label the entire
> azadi
> > > > > > > > sruggle as cmmunal, as being mtivated by Hindu/Mulsim
> concerns.
> > > While
> > > > > > > > I don't deny the absence of this, do you admit that the
> Kashmiri
> > > > > > > > Muslims mainly want independence from India - not Hindus? If
> it
> > > was
> > > > > > > > about the Hindu-Muslim, Hindutva-Jehad binaries, wouldn't the
> > > majority
> > > > > > > > demand be for Pakistan rather than an independent
> nation-state?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Warmly,
> > > > > > > > Shivam
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 8/16/08, S. Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hi Shuddha,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A quick & hopefully short reply to some of the points you
> have
> > > > > raised.
> > > > > > > You
> > > > > > > > > may not have named it as such but the feeling in the valley
> is
> > > very
> > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > about a Hindu state resorting to greater violence against
> Muslim
> > > > > Kashmir
> > > > > > > > > than Hindu Jammu. While it is easy to arrive at this
> conclusion
> > > > > given
> > > > > > > > > India¹s history of communal violence, I was merely trying
> to
> > > point
> > > > > out
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > in Kashmir the situation was slightly different, and
> obviously
> > > not
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > accuse
> > > > > > > > > you of communal thinking.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I read with some surprise your taking issue with my use of
> the
> > > > > phrase,
> > > > > > > > > Œbaying for blood¹ and your accompanying list of slogans
> used
> > > during
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > protests.  It is incomplete and I could add a few more but
> I
> > > really
> > > > > > > don¹t
> > > > > > > > > want to vitiate and already horrible situation.  I¹m sure
> you
> > > > > remember
> > > > > > > 1989
> > > > > > > > > and the slogan ŒJai Sri Ram.¹  Advani had used a similar
> > > argument
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > challenged.  He said something like, what is communal or
> > > provocative
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > taking God¹s name?  What, indeed, except when there is a
> > > thousand
> > > > > strong
> > > > > > > mob
> > > > > > > > > screaming God¹s name and marching towards Muslim localities
> as
> > > they
> > > > > did
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > Œ92 and Œ93.  I would describe that as baying for blood.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Incidentally, here¹s a report in the HT on the Police vs.
> CRPF
> > > > > > > culpability:
> > > > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > THE KASHMIR situation has taken a new turn with police
> becoming
> > > the
> > > > > main
> > > > > > > > > target of protesters.
> > > > > > > > > There have also been calls for their social boycott.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The local population is angry for the police's "brutal
> conduct
> > > > > against
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > own people".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > State police has been active alongside the CRPF to crush
> > > protests in
> > > > > > > Kashmir
> > > > > > > > > over the past four days, which left 23 dead and around 200
> > > injured.
> > > > > > > > > Incidentally, the contingent that fired on the "cross-LOC"
> > > marchers
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > Uri
> > > > > > > > > on August 10 was led by a local Khursheed Khan, station
> house
> > > > > officer of
> > > > > > > > > Sheeri police station. Senior Hurriyat leader Shaikh Aziz
> and
> > > two
> > > > > others
> > > > > > > > > were killed in the incident. Mirwaiz Ummer Faroog said "it
> was a
> > > > > target
> > > > > > > > > killing".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hundreds of people attacked Khan's residence in Baramullah
> and
> > > > > torched
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > They also torched Sheeri police station. Several such
> incidents
> > > have
> > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > reported across the Valley People at Handwara have called
> for a
> > > > > social
> > > > > > > > > boycott of cops and their relatives. Residents of
> Srinagar's Raj
> > > > > Bagh
> > > > > > > > > locality took out a protest march on Wednesday, asking the
> > > police
> > > > > > > "whether
> > > > > > > > > they stand for India or for their people in Kashmir". This
> is in
> > > > > stark
> > > > > > > > > contrast to 1990, when militancy erupted. Police then were
> seen
> > > as
> > > > > > > > > "friendly". Hundreds of cops had resigned and joined
> militancy.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> >
>
>
> --
>
> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
> To: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com>
> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:18:31 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
> I agree.
> Prabhakar
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
> To: Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>; sarai list <
> reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Sunday, 17 August, 2008 9:13:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
>
> It is not the obsession with but 'extremism of religion and hatred'
> that 'has to go if we aspire to survive at all'.
>
> You might want to be the hange you want to see...
>
>
>
> On 8/17/08, Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > We are over-obsessed with extremism of religion and hatred.This has to go
> if we aspire to survive at all.
> > Prabhakar
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
> > To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> > Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, 17 August, 2008 8:46:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
> >
> > This is ridiculous, and worse, communally provocative. Under the
> > Indian Constitution, free speech does not include the right t provoke
> > violence between two communities, which this video almost does.
> >
> > It is ridiculous to compare Haj with Amarnath because Haj has existed
> > for centuries whereas Amarnath yatra as an obsession has been gaining
> > ground only since the late nineties - which is why many kashmiris see
> > the brouhaha over Amarnath as a provocation.
> >
> > Scrap the Haj subsidy, i say, and scrap it now. but why not compare
> > goverment spending and facilities on the Haj pilgrimage with, say, the
> > Kumbh mela?
> >
> > But that wouldn't help spread lies, hatred, violence.
> >
> > best
> > s
> >
> >
> > On 8/14/08, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfN-rUlM8U8
> > >
> > > __._,_.___
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Every story has two sides.
> > You can't take both.
> > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> >      Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.
> Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
> >
>
>
> --
>
> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>
>
>
>      Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.
> Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> To: Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:55:55 +0530
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
> Dear all,
>
> Can I please request everyone concerned not to shoot off one word, or one
> sentence mails. Please hit send only if you think you have a substantial
> contribution to make to the discussion and not to score points like in a
> Televised sepctacle. Every post occupies bandwidth, and takes energy to
> download and read.
>
> And once again, please try and refrain from attacking each other
> personally.
>
> Thanks and regards
>
> Shuddha
>
> On 17-Aug-08, at 9:48 PM, Prabhakar Singh wrote:
>
>  I agree.
>> Prabhakar
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
>> To: Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>; sarai list <reader-
>> list at sarai.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, 17 August, 2008 9:13:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
>>
>> It is not the obsession with but 'extremism of religion and hatred'
>> that 'has to go if we aspire to survive at all'.
>>
>> You might want to be the hange you want to see...
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/17/08, Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We are over-obsessed with extremism of religion and hatred.This has to go
>>> if we aspire to survive at all.
>>> Prabhakar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
>>> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Sent: Sunday, 17 August, 2008 8:46:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
>>>
>>> This is ridiculous, and worse, communally provocative. Under the
>>> Indian Constitution, free speech does not include the right t provoke
>>> violence between two communities, which this video almost does.
>>>
>>> It is ridiculous to compare Haj with Amarnath because Haj has existed
>>> for centuries whereas Amarnath yatra as an obsession has been gaining
>>> ground only since the late nineties - which is why many kashmiris see
>>> the brouhaha over Amarnath as a provocation.
>>>
>>> Scrap the Haj subsidy, i say, and scrap it now. but why not compare
>>> goverment spending and facilities on the Haj pilgrimage with, say, the
>>> Kumbh mela?
>>>
>>> But that wouldn't help spread lies, hatred, violence.
>>>
>>> best
>>> s
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/14/08, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfN-rUlM8U8
>>>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>>> _________________________________________
>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Every story has two sides.
>>> You can't take both.
>>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>>> _________________________________________
>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>
>>>
>>>      Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.
>>> Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>      Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.
>> Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> Raqs Media Collective
> shuddha at sarai.net
> www.sarai.net
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" <mail at shivamvij.com>
> To: "Prabhakar Singh" <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:43:03 +0530
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
> It is not the obsession with but 'extremism of religion and hatred'
> that 'has to go if we aspire to survive at all'.
>
> You might want to be the hange you want to see...
>
>
>
> On 8/17/08, Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > We are over-obsessed with extremism of religion and hatred.This has to go
> if we aspire to survive at all.
> > Prabhakar
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
> > To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> > Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, 17 August, 2008 8:46:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Secular Haj Vs Communal Amarnath
> >
> > This is ridiculous, and worse, communally provocative. Under the
> > Indian Constitution, free speech does not include the right t provoke
> > violence between two communities, which this video almost does.
> >
> > It is ridiculous to compare Haj with Amarnath because Haj has existed
> > for centuries whereas Amarnath yatra as an obsession has been gaining
> > ground only since the late nineties - which is why many kashmiris see
> > the brouhaha over Amarnath as a provocation.
> >
> > Scrap the Haj subsidy, i say, and scrap it now. but why not compare
> > goverment spending and facilities on the Haj pilgrimage with, say, the
> > Kumbh mela?
> >
> > But that wouldn't help spread lies, hatred, violence.
> >
> > best
> > s
> >
> >
> > On 8/14/08, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfN-rUlM8U8
> > >
> > > __._,_.___
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Every story has two sides.
> > You can't take both.
> > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> >      Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.
> Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
> >
>
>
> --
>
> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
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