[Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai

[Yousuf]

Dear Kshmendra 
Thanks for your clarification, and I am happy to know that you do appreciate Pakistan and its citizens more than I thought. I was only reacting to the sentence "hate runs deep in the psyche of majority of Pakistanis" which sounded alarming. The governments and the public opinions are formed only by a handful of people in any country. And the act of a few people cannot be generalized to an entire community and masses. As for how the "inner mind" of anyone is hidden behind his/her facial expression; can't that be applied to people of any country or community? 

regards

Yousuf 


--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
> To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 6:25 PM
> Dear Yousuf
>  
> I will touch upon only some issues since Shumona Goel has
> already branded me a hate monger.
>  
> Yes I have visited Pakistan and not just once. Yes I know
> many Pakistanis personally and some of my dearest friends
> are Pakistanis.
>  
> My experience of personal interaction with Pakistanis is
> no different than yours. In my case this includes almost
> hedonistic wining, dining and partying with them.
>  
> Amongst my favourite poets are some from Pakistan like
> Faiz, Obaidullah Aleem, Parveen Shakir, Amjad Islam Amjad.
> Mehdi Hassan's singing provides food for not just my
> heart but the soul too.
>  
> Yes it is true that by all accounts without any exception,
> Indians who went to Pakistan for the cricket matches had
> nothing but glowing praise for the warmth and hospitality
> they received and the sporting nature of the Pakistani
> crowds.
>  
> Yes it is also true that we in India in comparison were
> most shoddy in reciprocating that warmth and hospitality
> when Pakistanis came to India for the cricket matches and
> our crowds were boorish in their behaviour. 
>  
> Having said all of that, you would appreciate that
> relationships on a personal level have nothing to do with
> what country a person is from. Nor can they form the basis
> of making a macro level evaluation of the 'psyche'
> of a country. 
>  
> The 'inner mind' transcends the behaviour of
> 'hail fellow well met' pleasant situations. 
>  
> As an example, it would be foolish for anyone to believe
> that the warmth generated by Vajpayee and even someone
> like Advani during their visits to Pakistan is in any way a
> reflection of their "inner mind". 
>  
> Yousuf, at one point in my life, I had the easy choice of
> nurturing for ever after a HATE for Islam and Pakistan.
> Instead I chose to study about and understand both. I will
> not go into details of 'how and where', but I
> continue to monitor Pakistan on an almost daily basis.
>  
> That is where my evaluations come from.
>  
> Kshmendra
>  
> PS. As an Indian, I desire a stable Pakistan with a vibrant
> democracy. That, in my opinion is what is best for India.
>  
>   
> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement
> on Mumbai
> To: "Naeem Mohaiemen"
> <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 3:28 PM
> 
> Dear Kshmendra
> I am tempted to intervene in your description of how
> "hate" is
> promoted in Pakistan according to you. Have you ever
> visited Pakistan? Do you
> know any Pakistanis (or met them) personally from whom you
> got these vibes. I
> know I am falling into a clich'ed trap, but I wanted to
> let you know that
> almost all Indians who ever visited Pakistan or met people
> from there recently
> have talked about how warmly they were treated when they
> visited there as
> Indians. I (an Indian) myself spent about 5 months in
> Lahore, Karachi and
> Islamabad in 2005 (as part of a fellowship), and I did not
> meet a single person
> there who hated Indians or Hindus (at least they didn't
> say it to me, nor
> did their conversations revealed this hate you talk about).
> An average Pakistani
> knew and appreciated much more about India than any Indians
> would about
> Pakistan. Most of them looked up to India in terms of the
> progress it has made
> and they love Indian movies, music and every thing else. In
>  fact the moment they got to know I was an Indian they
> would hug me warmly.
> When they found I was a Muslim, they were slightly
> disappointed - they were
> actually looking forward to meet a Hindu! When I was in
> Pakistan, there was a
> cricket match series. The Indian team visited Lahore and
> won a one-day match.
> The victory of India was celebrated by Pakistanis with
> firecrackers and sweets.
> In contrast, when the Pakistani team was about to win in
> Delhi (in the same
> series), the disappointed Delhiites threw stones into the
> pitch (at Kotla
> stadium). I can go on and on about this, but I am sure my
> descriptions would be
> utterly misunderstood in the present scenario.
> 
> Having said the above, I will not claim that the
> fundamentalist elements and
> the terror-training doesn't exist in Pakistan. It is
> proven, and more than
> India, the Pakistani extremist have been destructive to
> their own country. They
> strike at will at places like Karachi and Islamabad killing
> hundreds of Muslims
> with no regret. So these are Muslims killing other Muslims.
> Yes there is
> hate-proganda about other sects and ideologies (as you
> listed), but I didn't
> find a single person affected by it. You must also realize
> that since the time
> of Musharraf, the top leadership is seriously concerned and
> working towards
> eliminating the blot of terror from Pakistan. Maybe the
> situation is so out of
> control and complex that it will take more time and effort.
> The powerful
> religio-political institutions built in both countries will
> take a lot of effort
> to break down. But in short, I do not agree with you that
> "Hate Agendas run
> deep in the veins and psyche of the
>  overwhelming majority of Pakistanis". Common
> Pakistanis are so curious to
> visit India and meet Indians. I am talking from personal
> experience, and would
> like to know if you have had any personal experiences
> yourself. In fact I would
> like if there are any "non-Muslims" on this list
> who have visited
> Pakistan or interacted with its citizens to share their
> experiences.
> 
> Yousuf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan
> Statement on Mumbai
> > To: "Naeem Mohaiemen"
> <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 2:47 PM
> > Dear Naeem
> >  
> > I fully realise what I wrote and reaffirm the
> statement. If
> > you find it unfair, it is perhaps because you are not
> > familiar enough with the realities in Pakistan.
> >  
> > Let me repeat what I said (slightly edited):
> >  
> > " Hate Agendas run deep in the veins and psyche
> of the
> > overwhelming majority of Pakistanis"
> >  
> > The 'danger' is not in what I said but in
> ignoring
> > what I said. Ignoring that reality has led to allowing
> the
> > dangers emanating from Pakistan to go unchallenged. 
> >  
> > I do not hate Pakistan as presumed by you. Hate clouds
> > well-informed and well-reasoned evaluations. 
> >  
> > The 'violent minority' that you refer to is
> not the
> > totality or completeness of expression of the
> "Hate
> > Agendas" I spoke about. The 'National Psyche
> of
> > Pakistan' is the breeding ground for such partial
> > (violent) expression.
> >  
> > Naeem, I suggest to you Sir that Pakistan was created
> > "For Muslims" or "In the name of
> Islam"
> > (take your pick), the institution that has held it
> together
> > since 1947 is the Military Establishment and the
> > 'ideology' that has held it together is not
> Islam
> > but "Hate for India".
> >  
> > To that "National Hate for India" they have
> > managed to add through the years "National Hate
> for
> > USA". In fact "National Hate for Everyone
> > Else" including (surprise, surprise) Arabs.
> >  
> > The "Hate Agendas", in keeping with
> > Pakistan's federated structure extend themselves
> to the
> > mutualities of "Hate Punjabis", "Hate
> > Sindhis", "Hate Mohajirs", "Hate
> > Balochis", "Hate Pathans", "Hate
> > Kashmiris".
> >  
> > Let us not forget the packed pockets of
> "Hate"
> > based on their own convoluted interpretation of Islam
> and
> > not just directed towards Music,Dance, Films and
> Barbers and
> > Girls' Schools but also "Hate Shias",
> > "Hate Sunnis", "Hate Ahmedis,
> "Hate
> > Barelvis", "Hate Deobandhis",
> "Hate
> > Wahabis", "Hate Sufis", "Hate
> > Dargahs".
> >  
> > We are talking about HATE in it's most intense and
> > degraded forms of expression and not milder attitudes
> like
> > dislikes or disagreements.
> >  
> > What you say is true (and it is not much different in
> > India) that the "overwhelming majority of
> Pakistanis
> > are struggling for roti-kapra-makaan". But we are
> not
> > talking about the needs of the body here. Those needs
> are
> > common for all humans.
> >  
> > There is a uniqueness in the food (or blood) that
> > satisfies those minds and psyches  that are
> conditoned to
> > "Hate" or in some cases the menus sought for
> > "liberating the soul" through the
> 'destruction
> > of others'. Study Pakistan to understand and
> realise
> > that.
> >  
> > Kshmendra
> >