[Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai

[Kshmendra Kaul]

Dear Yousuf
 
I will touch upon only some issues since Shumona Goel has already branded me a hate monger.
 
Yes I have visited Pakistan and not just once. Yes I know many Pakistanis personally and some of my dearest friends are Pakistanis.
 
My experience of personal interaction with Pakistanis is no different than yours. In my case this includes almost hedonistic wining, dining and partying with them.
 
Amongst my favourite poets are some from Pakistan like Faiz, Obaidullah Aleem, Parveen Shakir, Amjad Islam Amjad. Mehdi Hassan's singing provides food for not just my heart but the soul too.
 
Yes it is true that by all accounts without any exception, Indians who went to Pakistan for the cricket matches had nothing but glowing praise for the warmth and hospitality they received and the sporting nature of the Pakistani crowds.
 
Yes it is also true that we in India in comparison were most shoddy in reciprocating that warmth and hospitality when Pakistanis came to India for the cricket matches and our crowds were boorish in their behaviour. 
 
Having said all of that, you would appreciate that relationships on a personal level have nothing to do with what country a person is from. Nor can they form the basis of making a macro level evaluation of the 'psyche' of a country. 
 
The 'inner mind' transcends the behaviour of 'hail fellow well met' pleasant situations. 
 
As an example, it would be foolish for anyone to believe that the warmth generated by Vajpayee and even someone like Advani during their visits to Pakistan is in any way a reflection of their "inner mind". 
 
Yousuf, at one point in my life, I had the easy choice of nurturing for ever after a HATE for Islam and Pakistan. Instead I chose to study about and understand both. I will not go into details of 'how and where', but I continue to monitor Pakistan on an almost daily basis.
 
That is where my evaluations come from.
 
Kshmendra
 
PS. As an Indian, I desire a stable Pakistan with a vibrant democracy. That, in my opinion is what is best for India.
 
  
--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
To: "Naeem Mohaiemen" <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 3:28 PM

Dear Kshmendra
I am tempted to intervene in your description of how "hate" is
promoted in Pakistan according to you. Have you ever visited Pakistan? Do you
know any Pakistanis (or met them) personally from whom you got these vibes. I
know I am falling into a clich'ed trap, but I wanted to let you know that
almost all Indians who ever visited Pakistan or met people from there recently
have talked about how warmly they were treated when they visited there as
Indians. I (an Indian) myself spent about 5 months in Lahore, Karachi and
Islamabad in 2005 (as part of a fellowship), and I did not meet a single person
there who hated Indians or Hindus (at least they didn't say it to me, nor
did their conversations revealed this hate you talk about). An average Pakistani
knew and appreciated much more about India than any Indians would about
Pakistan. Most of them looked up to India in terms of the progress it has made
and they love Indian movies, music and every thing else. In
 fact the moment they got to know I was an Indian they would hug me warmly.
When they found I was a Muslim, they were slightly disappointed - they were
actually looking forward to meet a Hindu! When I was in Pakistan, there was a
cricket match series. The Indian team visited Lahore and won a one-day match.
The victory of India was celebrated by Pakistanis with firecrackers and sweets.
In contrast, when the Pakistani team was about to win in Delhi (in the same
series), the disappointed Delhiites threw stones into the pitch (at Kotla
stadium). I can go on and on about this, but I am sure my descriptions would be
utterly misunderstood in the present scenario.

Having said the above, I will not claim that the fundamentalist elements and
the terror-training doesn't exist in Pakistan. It is proven, and more than
India, the Pakistani extremist have been destructive to their own country. They
strike at will at places like Karachi and Islamabad killing hundreds of Muslims
with no regret. So these are Muslims killing other Muslims. Yes there is
hate-proganda about other sects and ideologies (as you listed), but I didn't
find a single person affected by it. You must also realize that since the time
of Musharraf, the top leadership is seriously concerned and working towards
eliminating the blot of terror from Pakistan. Maybe the situation is so out of
control and complex that it will take more time and effort. The powerful
religio-political institutions built in both countries will take a lot of effort
to break down. But in short, I do not agree with you that "Hate Agendas run
deep in the veins and psyche of the
 overwhelming majority of Pakistanis". Common Pakistanis are so curious to
visit India and meet Indians. I am talking from personal experience, and would
like to know if you have had any personal experiences yourself. In fact I would
like if there are any "non-Muslims" on this list who have visited
Pakistan or interacted with its citizens to share their experiences.

Yousuf




--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
> To: "Naeem Mohaiemen" <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 2:47 PM
> Dear Naeem
>  
> I fully realise what I wrote and reaffirm the statement. If
> you find it unfair, it is perhaps because you are not
> familiar enough with the realities in Pakistan.
>  
> Let me repeat what I said (slightly edited):
>  
> " Hate Agendas run deep in the veins and psyche of the
> overwhelming majority of Pakistanis"
>  
> The 'danger' is not in what I said but in ignoring
> what I said. Ignoring that reality has led to allowing the
> dangers emanating from Pakistan to go unchallenged. 
>  
> I do not hate Pakistan as presumed by you. Hate clouds
> well-informed and well-reasoned evaluations. 
>  
> The 'violent minority' that you refer to is not the
> totality or completeness of expression of the "Hate
> Agendas" I spoke about. The 'National Psyche of
> Pakistan' is the breeding ground for such partial
> (violent) expression.
>  
> Naeem, I suggest to you Sir that Pakistan was created
> "For Muslims" or "In the name of Islam"
> (take your pick), the institution that has held it together
> since 1947 is the Military Establishment and the
> 'ideology' that has held it together is not Islam
> but "Hate for India".
>  
> To that "National Hate for India" they have
> managed to add through the years "National Hate for
> USA". In fact "National Hate for Everyone
> Else" including (surprise, surprise) Arabs.
>  
> The "Hate Agendas", in keeping with
> Pakistan's federated structure extend themselves to the
> mutualities of "Hate Punjabis", "Hate
> Sindhis", "Hate Mohajirs", "Hate
> Balochis", "Hate Pathans", "Hate
> Kashmiris".
>  
> Let us not forget the packed pockets of "Hate"
> based on their own convoluted interpretation of Islam and
> not just directed towards Music,Dance, Films and Barbers and
> Girls' Schools but also "Hate Shias",
> "Hate Sunnis", "Hate Ahmedis, "Hate
> Barelvis", "Hate Deobandhis", "Hate
> Wahabis", "Hate Sufis", "Hate
> Dargahs".
>  
> We are talking about HATE in it's most intense and
> degraded forms of expression and not milder attitudes like
> dislikes or disagreements.
>  
> What you say is true (and it is not much different in
> India) that the "overwhelming majority of Pakistanis
> are struggling for roti-kapra-makaan". But we are not
> talking about the needs of the body here. Those needs are
> common for all humans.
>  
> There is a uniqueness in the food (or blood) that
> satisfies those minds and psyches  that are conditoned to
> "Hate" or in some cases the menus sought for
> "liberating the soul" through the 'destruction
> of others'. Study Pakistan to understand and realise
> that.
>  
> Kshmendra
>