[Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
taraprakash
taraprakash at gmail.com
Tue Dec 2 20:12:47 IST 2008
Hi kshmendra and all. The hate against India, US, Britain and Israel is definitely there in many Pakistanis. Against India the hate has its ebbs and tides, because the state and the media controls the hate factor. This is not only true in Pakistan it is true for India also. The feelings against Pakistan are hundred times higher in India than they were a month back. You just need to compare the blog entries and listen to people on the streets to know this. The state and the media decide how much hate should be allowed to flourish. We should not blame the people for it. The media manufactures the public opinion. this has been referred to as hegemony or manufactured consent by scholars. You just needed to open any damn magazine in the US in early 90s and you would read at least one article about the Chinese brutalities on its people. When China opened its market for the West, the brutalities could hardly been seen in any papers. I think this is universal. So let us not blame the people, it is the media.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kshmendra Kaul
To: Naeem Mohaiemen
Cc: taraprakash ; reader-list at sarai.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
Dear Naeem
I fully realise what I wrote and reaffirm the statement. If you find it unfair, it is perhaps because you are not familiar enough with the realities in Pakistan.
Let me repeat what I said (slightly edited):
" Hate Agendas run deep in the veins and psyche of the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis"
The 'danger' is not in what I said but in ignoring what I said. Ignoring that reality has led to allowing the dangers emanating from Pakistan to go unchallenged.
I do not hate Pakistan as presumed by you. Hate clouds well-informed and well-reasoned evaluations.
The 'violent minority' that you refer to is not the totality or completeness of expression of the "Hate Agendas" I spoke about. The 'National Psyche of Pakistan' is the breeding ground for such partial (violent) expression.
Naeem, I suggest to you Sir that Pakistan was created "For Muslims" or "In the name of Islam" (take your pick), the institution that has held it together since 1947 is the Military Establishment and the 'ideology' that has held it together is not Islam but "Hate for India".
To that "National Hate for India" they have managed to add through the years "National Hate for USA". In fact "National Hate for Everyone Else" including (surprise, surprise) Arabs.
The "Hate Agendas", in keeping with Pakistan's federated structure extend themselves to the mutualities of "Hate Punjabis", "Hate Sindhis", "Hate Mohajirs", "Hate Balochis", "Hate Pathans", "Hate Kashmiris".
Let us not forget the packed pockets of "Hate" based on their own convoluted interpretation of Islam and not just directed towards Music,Dance, Films and Barbers and Girls' Schools but also "Hate Shias", "Hate Sunnis", "Hate Ahmedis, "Hate Barelvis", "Hate Deobandhis", "Hate Wahabis", "Hate Sufis", "Hate Dargahs".
We are talking about HATE in it's most intense and degraded forms of expression and not milder attitudes like dislikes or disagreements.
What you say is true (and it is not much different in India) that the "overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are struggling for roti-kapra-makaan". But we are not talking about the needs of the body here. Those needs are common for all humans.
There is a uniqueness in the food (or blood) that satisfies those minds and psyches that are conditoned to "Hate" or in some cases the menus sought for "liberating the soul" through the 'destruction of others'. Study Pakistan to understand and realise that.
Kshmendra
--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: "taraprakash" <taraprakash at gmail.com>, reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 10:55 PM
Kshmendra
It's deeply unfair and dangerous to say " 'hate agenda' runs
in the
veins and psyche of the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis."
I think overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are struggling for
roto-kapra-makaan and don't have time for fantasies of hate and death.
Unfortunately it only takes twenty to forty believers in a mad killing
vision to put a shadow of suspicion over populations of millions.
And by the way I'm Bangladeshi, so I should have far more reasons to
hate Pakistanis than you (how many Bengalis died in 1971? At least a
million more than have ever died in India-Pakistan conflicts/wars).
But I'm still not willing to let the violent minority pretend to speak
for the majority.
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Dear Naeem
>
> Here is a thought for everyone
>
> A Terror-Strike of the scale and complexity that has been witnessed would
> require quite a bit of advance planning and in all probability it's
> execution set in motion well in advance of D-Day.
>
> Isnt' it rather idiotic of the signatories to the Statement to even
suggest
> a linkage between the Terror-Strike and it's taking place having been
timed
> to (to quote):
>
> """"" ..... the day the Home Secretaries of the
two countries concluded
> their talks in Islamabad and announced several concrete steps to move
> forward in the peace process, such as the opening of several land routes
for
> trade – Kargil, Wagah-Attari, Khokhropar etc –, relaxation in the visa
> regime, a soft and liberal policy on the issue of release of prisoners
and
> joint efforts to fight terrorism? Again, is it just a coincidence that on
> this fateful day the Foreign Minister of Pakistan was in the Indian
capital
> holding very useful and productive talks with his Indian counterpart?
> """""""
>
> These idiots seem to suggest that the Terror-Strike would not have taken
> place if the ongoing talks between the two countries were not taking place
> amicably and moving towards "concrete steps to move forward in the
> peace process". The past history of Terror-Strikes emanating out of
Pakistan
> dismisses any such notion.
>
> Some people on both sides of the border seem to think that the realities
of
> attitudes in both countries lie in the much touted "People to people
> contact" and the accompanying "peace noises" in the
seminars and the
> (alcoholic or not) cocktail circuits. They are either foolish enough to
fool
> themselves into believing so or devious enough to try and fool others into
> beleiving so.
>
> Rather than putting forward a conspiracy theory about the conspiracy of
the
> Terror-Strike and make such pompous statements of little value, it would
> serve the Pakistanis well to look inwards and try and set things right in
> their country.
>
> It would serve the Indians well to realise how deep the "hate
agenda" runs
> in the veins and psyche of the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> From: Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
> To: "taraprakash" <taraprakash at gmail.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 7:25 PM
>
> Accha bhai, everyone is hurt, bewildered, mourning, shocked, and
> finally angry. But can you not take even one minute pause to welcome a
> Joint India-Pakistan Statement of Mourning/Support for Mumbai as a
> positive development (even though it's miniscule)?
>
> Was there anything in the statement that denied Daud, that spewed
> venom? Since there was not, why does this Statement also have to be
> greeted by the same language?
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:49 PM, taraprakash <taraprakash at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> There may not be clear evidence of Daud but Pakistani media has
several
>> times covered the rallies addressed by those who were returned (by BJP
>> government) in exchange for the hijacked plane in Kandhar. They spew
venom
>> against all the Qafirs which include the moderate Muslims who are
friends
>> with the qafirs or are not friends with the misguided Jihadis.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "rashneek kher"
> <rashneek at gmail.com>
>> To: "Naeem Mohaiemen" <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
>> Cc: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
>>
>>
>>> All this is fine.
>>> Let Pakistan only admit that they gave/are giving shelter and
refuge
> to
>>> Dawood(not handover him to India),have terrorist camps in POK and
> other
>>> parts of Pakistan.We have to first accept truth before the process
of
>>> reconciliation can be started.
>>> Pakistan Govt may not be involved in this Mumbai thing but can it
> refute
>>> what Sheikh Rashid writes in his book on Taliban,that Kashmiri
> terrorists
>>> had camps run by ISI in Pakistan and Afgahnaistan.
>>> Can they refute that they sent army regulars to be killed in
Kargil
> and
>>> did
>>> not even accept their dead bodies saying they are Kashmiris and
not
>>> Pakistanis.Tell me please,I may be ignorant but but have the
composite
>>> dialogue process or the opening of trade,routes or anything else
> achieved
>>> any thing close to peace.(Incidentally not even one Kashmiri
Pandit
> was
>>> allowed into PoK despite thousands of applications to visit the
sacred
>>> shrine of Sharda.)
>>> I wish there is lasting peace so that I can atleast go home if not
to
>>> Sharda
>>> but for all that to happen,Pakistan must act on terrorists on its
side
> and
>>> India should stop blaming Pakistan before they have credible
evidence.
>>>
>>> Rashneek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen
>>> <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This Joint Statement was released to the press
>>>> simultaneously in Pakistan and India on November 30
>>>> 2008.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mumbai bloodbath
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We are deeply shocked and horrified at the bloody
>>>> mayhem in Mumbai, which has claimed more than a
>>>> hundred and ninty lives and caused grievous injuries
>>>> to several hundred people, besides sending a wave of
>>>> panic and terror across South Asia and beyond. We
>>>> convey our profound feelings of sorrow and sympathies
>>>> to the grieving families of the unfortunate victims of
>>>> this heinous crime and express our solidarity with
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As usual, all sorts of speculations are circulating
>>>> about the identity of the perpetrators of this act of
>>>> barbarism. The truth about who are directly involved
>>>> in this brutal incident and who could be the culprits
>>>> behind the scene is yet to come out and we do not wish
>>>> to indulge in any guesswork or blame game at this
>>>> point. However, one is intrigued at its timing. Can it
>>>> be termed a coincidence that it has happened on the
>>>> day the Home Secretaries of the two countries
>>>> concluded their talks in Islamabad and announced
>>>> several concrete steps to move forward in the peace
>>>> process, such as the opening of several land routes
>>>> for trade – Kargil, Wagah-Attari, Khokhropar etc –,
>>>> relaxation in the visa regime, a soft and liberal
>>>> policy on the issue of release of prisoners and joint
>>>> efforts to fight terrorism? Again, is it just a
>>>> coincidence that on this fateful day the Foreign
>>>> Minister of Pakistan was in the Indian capital holding
>>>> very useful and productive talks with his Indian
>>>> counterpart? One thing looks crystal clear. The
>>>> enemies of peace and friendship between the two
>>>> countries, whatever be the label under which they
>>>> operate, are un-nerved by these healthy developments
>>>> and are hell bent on torpedoing them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We are of the considered opinion that the continued
>>>> absence of peace in South Asia - peace between and
>>>> within states - particularly in relation to India and
>>>> Pakistan , is one of the root causes of most of the
>>>> miseries the people of the region are made to endure.
>>>> It is the major reason why our abundantly
>>>> resource-rich subcontinent is wallowing in poverty,
>>>> unemployment, disease, and ignorance and why
>>>> militarism, religious and sectarian violence and
>>>> political, economic and social injustice are eating
>>>> into the very vitals of our societies, even after more
>>>> than six decades of independence from colonial rule.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At this moment of unmitigated tragedy, the first thing
>>>> we call upon the Governments of India and Pakistan to
>>>> do is to acknowledge the fact that the overwhelming
>>>> majority of the people of India and Pakistan ardently
>>>> desire peace and, therefore, the peace process must be
>>>> pursued with redoubled speed and determination on both
>>>> sides. The sooner the ruling establishments of India
>>>> and Pakistan acknowledge this fact and push ahead with
>>>> concrete steps towards lasting peace and harmony in
>>>> the subcontinent, the better it will be not only for
>>>> the people of our two countries but also for the whole
>>>> of South Asia and the world. While the immediate
>>>> responsibility for unmasking the culpritsof Mumbai
>>>> and taking them to task surely rests with the
>>>> Government of India, all of us in South Asia have an
>>>> obligation to join hands and go into the root causes
>>>> of why and how such forces of evil are motivated and
>>>> emboldened to resort to such acts of anti-people
>>>> terror.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is extremely important to remind the leaderships of
>>>> Pakistan and India that issuing statements and
>>>> signing agreements and declarations will have meaning
>>>> only when they are translated into action and
>>>> implemented honestly, in letter and spirit and without
>>>> any further loss of time. It assumes added urgency in
>>>> the prevailing conditions in South Asia , with the
>>>> possibility that so many different forces prone to
>>>> religious, sectarian and other forms of intolerance
>>>> and violence may be looking for ways to arm themselves
>>>> with more and more sophisticated weapons of mass
>>>> murder and destruction. The bloodbath in Mumbai must
>>>> open the eyes of our governments, if it has not
>>>> already happened.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We urge upon the governments of India and Pakistan to
>>>> immediately take the following steps:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. Cessation of all hostile propaganda against each
>>>> other;
>>>> 2. Joint action to curb religious extremism of all
>>>> shades in both countries;
>>>> 3. Continue and intensify normalization of
>>>> relations and peaceful resolution of all conflicts
>>>> between the two countries;
>>>> 4. Facilitation of trade and cooperation between
>>>> the two countries and in all of South Asia . We
>>>> welcome the fact that the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad and
>>>> Poonch-Rawlakot borders have been opened for trade and
>>>> that the opening of the road between Kargil and Skardu
>>>> is in the pipeline.
>>>> 5. Immediate abolition of the current practice of
>>>> issuing city-specific and police reporting visa and
>>>> issue country-valid visa without restrictions at
>>>> arrival point, simultaneously initiating necessary
>>>> steps to introduce as early as possible a visa-free
>>>> travel regime, to encourage friendship between the
>>>> peoples of both countries;
>>>> 6. Declaration by India and Pakistan of No First
>>>> Use of atomic weapons;
>>>> 7. Concrete measures towards making South Asia
>>>> nuclear-free;
>>>> 8. Radical reduction in military spending and end
>>>> to militarisation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Signatories:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pakistan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. Mr. Iqbal Haider, Co-Chairman, Human Rights
>>>> Commission Pakistan and former federal Minister of
>>>> Pakistan
>>>> 2. Dr. Tipu Sultan, President, Pakistan Doctors for
>>>> Peace & Development, Karachi
>>>> 3. Dr. Tariq Sohail, Dean, Jinnah Medical & Dental
>>>> University , Karachi
>>>> 4. Dr. A. H.. Nayyar, President, Pakistan Peace
>>>> Coalition, Islamabad
>>>> 5. Justice (Retd) Rasheed A. Razvi, President,
>>>> Sindh High Court Bar Association
>>>> 6. Mr. B.M.Kutty, Secretary General , Pakistan
>>>> Peace Coalition, Karachi
>>>> 7. Mr. Karamat Ali, Director, PILER, Karachi ,
>>>> Founding member, PIPFPD
>>>> 8. Mr. Fareed Awan, General Secretary , Pakistan
>>>> Workers Confederation, Sindh
>>>> 9. Mr. Muhammad Ali Shah, Chairman , Pakistan
>>>> Fisherfolk Forum, Karachi
>>>> 10. Mr. Zulfiqar Halepoto, Secretary, Sindh
>>>> Democratic Front, Hyderabad
>>>> 11. Professor Dr. Sarfraz Khan, Area Studies Centre
>>>> ( Central Asia), Peshawar University
>>>> 12. Syed Khadim Ali Shah, Former Member National
>>>> Assembly, Mirpur Khas
>>>> 13. Mr. Muhammad Tahseen, Director, South Asia
>>>> Partnership (PAK), Lahore
>>>> 14. Mrs. Saleha Athar, Network for Women's Rights,
>>>> Karachi
>>>> 15. Ms. Sheema Kermani, Tehreek-e-Niswan, Karachi
>>>> 16. Ms. Saeeda Diep, President, Institute of Secular
>>>> Studies, Lahore
>>>> 17. Dr. Aly Ercelan, Pakistan Labour Trust, Karachi
>>>> 18. Mr. Suleiman G. Abro, Director, Sindh
>>>> Agricultural & Forestry Workers Organisation,
>>>> Hyderabad
>>>> 19. Mr. Sharafat Ali, PILER, Karachi
>>>> 20. Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah, PILER, Karachi
>>>> 21. Mr. Ayub Qureshi, Information Secretary ,
>>>> Pakistan Trade Union Federation
>>>> 22. Ms. Sheen Farrukh, Director, Interpress
>>>> Communication Pakistan , Karachi
>>>> 23. Mr. Zafar Malik, PIPFPD, Lahore
>>>> 24. Mr. Adam Malik, Action-Aid Pakistan , Karachi
>>>> 25. Mr. Qamarul Hasan, International Union of Food
>>>> Workers (IUF), Karachi
>>>> 26. Prof. Muhammad Nauman, NED University , Karachi
>>>> 27. Mr. Mirza Maqsood, General Secretary, Mazdoor
>>>> Mahaz-e-Amal
>>>> 28. Ms. Shaista Bukhari, Women Rights Association,
>>>> Multan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> India
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. Kuldip Nayar, journalist, former Indian High
>>>> Commissioner, UK., Delhi
>>>> 2. S P Shukla, retired Finance Secretary, former
>>>> Member, Planning Commission, Delhi
>>>> 3. PEACE MUMBAI network of 15 organisations, Mumbai
>>>> 4. Seema Mustafa, Journalist, Delhi
>>>> 5. Manisha Gupte, MASUM, Pune
>>>> 6. Dr. Ramesh Awasthi, PUCL, Maharashtra
>>>> 7. Jatin Desai, journalist, Mumbai
>>>> 8. Prof. Ritu Dewan, University of Mumbai
>>>> 9. Prabir Purkayashta, DSF, Delhi
>>>> 10. Prof. Pushpa Bhave , Mumbai
>>>> 11. Paromita Vohra, filmmaker, Mumbai
>>>> 12. Achin Vanaik, CNDP, Delhi
>>>> 13. Meena Menon, Focus on the Global South, Mumbai
>>>> 14. Romar Correa Professor of Economics, University
>>>> of Mumbai
>>>> 15. Anjum Rajabally, film writer, Mumbai
>>>> 16. Anand Patwardhan, filmmaker, Mumbai
>>>> 17. Kamla Bhasin, SANGAT, Delhi
>>>> 18. Dr. Padmini Swaminathan, MIDS, Chennai
>>>> 19. Sumit Bali, CEO, Kotak Mahindra Prime Limited
>>>> 20. Dr Walter Fernandes, Director, North Eastern
>>>> Social Research Centre , Assam ,
>>>> 21. Rabia, Lahore Chitrkar
>>>> 22. Rakesh Sharma, filmmaker, Mumbai
>>>> 23. Prof. Kamal Mitra Chenoy, JNU, Delhi
>>>> 24. Prof. Anuradha Chenoy, JNU, Delhi
>>>> 25. P K Das, architect, Mumbai
>>>> 26. Neera Adarkar, architect, Mumbai
>>>> 27. Datta Iswalkar, Secretary, Textile Workers
>>>> Action Committee, Mumbai
>>>> 28. Madhusree Dutta, filmmaker, Majlis, Mumbai
>>>> 29. Amrita Chhachhi, Founding member, PIPFPD
>>>> 30. Mazher Hussain, COVA, Hyderabad
>>>> 31. Prof. Manoranjan Mohanty, Delhi
>>>> 32. Prof. M C Arunan, Mumbai
>>>> _________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rashneek Kher
>>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy
>>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com
>>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
>>> _________________________________________
>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
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>>
>>
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