[Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai

[Yousuf]

Dear Kshmendra
Whatever little world I have seen so far, I do not see Pakistan with even an iota of difference from any other country in terms of how people's minds have been brainwashed for nationalism or religious identity. We have the same tools of brainwashing being used in every country, every culture when it comes to national or religious pride. And I repeat that it is just a few people or ruling institutions that prepare the discourse for pride or hatred - the public is not concerned about a larger nation unless they are brainwashed about it. We are all familiar with how the Nehru-Gandhi-Congress image has been sowed into our psyche as the only image of Indian identity.

Pakistan's effort at defining its "national identity" may have failed so far (as compared to other "straight" countries) but that's about the only difference. And we are seeing Pakistan differently because it is our closest "enemy", and we have too much at stake with it. If our closest "enemy" was Namibia, we would be interpreting Namibia's history in the same manner.

Yousuf


--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
> To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 8:31 PM
> Dear Yousuf
>  
> What I meant by the "inner mind" was the
> 'attitudinal mind' embedded in the psyche through
> conditioning.
>  
> Would that apply to all countries and communities?
> Certainly to some extent in specfic scenarios that would
> vary for each and so would also vary the intensity of
> reactions aroused.
>  
> Jews hate Muslims. Muslims hate Jews. Brits hate the French
> but happily use French cosmetics/perfumes. Vegetarians have
> a revulsion towards eating meat but not
> neccessarily towards meat eaters. Many meat eaters cannot
> suffer even the thought of eating innards or snakes or dogs
> or odd looking things like crabs, shrimps, lobsters, squid.
> Others love eating them. That is the embedded attitudinal
> psyche.
>  
> It comes from being conditioned to feel/think/react in that
> manner either by simple non-instructed imitative
> behaviour or by consciously being taught/indoctrinated. 
>  
> Brahmins for example were formally taught to detest
> Shudras. Colour and Race prejudice is also embedded
> attitudinal psyche.
>  
> The best part of this Mind-DNA is that it can be altered.
> Detoxified perhaps. Easily in some cases and with some
> difficulty in others. Some changes would take a generation
> reared in 'sterile non-indoctrination'.
>  
> Kshmendra
>  
> PS. I do not agree with your statement that "The
> governments and the public opinions are formed only by a
> handful of people in any country.". It varies from
> country to country. In Pakistan that we were talking about,
> it is much more complex than most other countries. What is
> also interesting about Pakistan is the changes since 1947
> that have taken place in the Mind-DNA of the "National
> Psyche". 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement
> on Mumbai
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 7:01 PM
> 
> Dear Kshmendra 
> Thanks for your clarification, and I am happy to know that
> you do appreciate
> Pakistan and its citizens more than I thought. I was only
> reacting to the
> sentence "hate runs deep in the psyche of majority of
> Pakistanis"
> which sounded alarming. The governments and the public
> opinions are formed only
> by a handful of people in any country. And the act of a few
> people cannot be
> generalized to an entire community and masses. As for how
> the "inner
> mind" of anyone is hidden behind his/her facial
> expression; can't that
> be applied to people of any country or community? 
> 
> regards
> 
> Yousuf 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan
> Statement on Mumbai
> > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 6:25 PM
> > Dear Yousuf
> >  
> > I will touch upon only some issues since Shumona Goel
> has
> > already branded me a hate monger.
> >  
> > Yes I have visited Pakistan and not just once. Yes I
> know
> > many Pakistanis personally and some of my dearest
> friends
> > are Pakistanis.
> >  
> > My experience of personal interaction with
> Pakistanis is
> > no different than yours. In my case this includes
> almost
> > hedonistic wining, dining and partying with them.
> >  
> > Amongst my favourite poets are some from Pakistan like
> > Faiz, Obaidullah Aleem, Parveen Shakir, Amjad Islam
> Amjad.
> > Mehdi Hassan's singing provides food for not just
> my
> > heart but the soul too.
> >  
> > Yes it is true that by all accounts without any
> exception,
> > Indians who went to Pakistan for the cricket matches
> had
> > nothing but glowing praise for the warmth and
> hospitality
> > they received and the sporting nature of the Pakistani
> > crowds.
> >  
> > Yes it is also true that we in India in comparison
> were
> > most shoddy in reciprocating that warmth and
> hospitality
> > when Pakistanis came to India for the cricket matches
> and
> > our crowds were boorish in their behaviour. 
> >  
> > Having said all of that, you would appreciate that
> > relationships on a personal level have nothing to do
> with
> > what country a person is from. Nor can they form the
> basis
> > of making a macro level evaluation of the
> 'psyche'
> > of a country. 
> >  
> > The 'inner mind' transcends the behaviour of
> > 'hail fellow well met' pleasant situations. 
> >  
> > As an example, it would be foolish for anyone to
> believe
> > that the warmth generated by Vajpayee and even someone
> > like Advani during their visits to Pakistan is in any
> way a
> > reflection of their "inner mind". 
> >  
> > Yousuf, at one point in my life, I had the easy choice
> of
> > nurturing for ever after a HATE for Islam and
> Pakistan.
> > Instead I chose to study about and understand both. I
> will
> > not go into details of 'how and where', but I
> > continue to monitor Pakistan on an almost daily basis.
> > 
> > That is where my evaluations come from.
> >  
> > Kshmendra
> >  
> > PS. As an Indian, I desire a stable Pakistan with a
> vibrant
> > democracy. That, in my opinion is what is best for
> India.
> >  
> >   
> > --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan
> Statement
> > on Mumbai
> > To: "Naeem Mohaiemen"
> > <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>,
> kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 3:28 PM
> > 
> > Dear Kshmendra
> > I am tempted to intervene in your description of how
> > "hate" is
> > promoted in Pakistan according to you. Have you ever
> > visited Pakistan? Do you
> > know any Pakistanis (or met them) personally from whom
> you
> > got these vibes. I
> > know I am falling into a clich'ed trap, but I
> wanted to
> > let you know that
> > almost all Indians who ever visited Pakistan or met
> people
> > from there recently
> > have talked about how warmly they were treated when
> they
> > visited there as
> > Indians. I (an Indian) myself spent about 5 months in
> > Lahore, Karachi and
> > Islamabad in 2005 (as part of a fellowship), and I did
> not
> > meet a single person
> > there who hated Indians or Hindus (at least they
> didn't
> > say it to me, nor
> > did their conversations revealed this hate you talk
> about).
> > An average Pakistani
> > knew and appreciated much more about India than any
> Indians
> > would about
> > Pakistan. Most of them looked up to India in terms of
> the
> > progress it has made
> > and they love Indian movies, music and every thing
> else. In
> >  fact the moment they got to know I was an Indian they
> > would hug me warmly.
> > When they found I was a Muslim, they were slightly
> > disappointed - they were
> > actually looking forward to meet a Hindu! When I was
> in
> > Pakistan, there was a
> > cricket match series. The Indian team visited Lahore
> and
> > won a one-day match.
> > The victory of India was celebrated by Pakistanis with
> > firecrackers and sweets.
> > In contrast, when the Pakistani team was about to win
> in
> > Delhi (in the same
> > series), the disappointed Delhiites threw stones into
> the
> > pitch (at Kotla
> > stadium). I can go on and on about this, but I am sure
> my
> > descriptions would be
> > utterly misunderstood in the present scenario.
> > 
> > Having said the above, I will not claim that the
> > fundamentalist elements and
> > the terror-training doesn't exist in Pakistan. It
> is
> > proven, and more than
> > India, the Pakistani extremist have been destructive
> to
> > their own country. They
> > strike at will at places like Karachi and Islamabad
> killing
> > hundreds of Muslims
> > with no regret. So these are Muslims killing other
> Muslims.
> > Yes there is
> > hate-proganda about other sects and ideologies (as you
> > listed), but I didn't
> > find a single person affected by it. You must also
> realize
> > that since the time
> > of Musharraf, the top leadership is seriously
> concerned and
> > working towards
> > eliminating the blot of terror from Pakistan. Maybe
> the
> > situation is so out of
> > control and complex that it will take more time and
> effort.
> > The powerful
> > religio-political institutions built in both countries
> will
> > take a lot of effort
> > to break down. But in short, I do not agree with you
> that
> > "Hate Agendas run
> > deep in the veins and psyche of the
> >  overwhelming majority of Pakistanis". Common
> > Pakistanis are so curious to
> > visit India and meet Indians. I am talking from
> personal
> > experience, and would
> > like to know if you have had any personal experiences
> > yourself. In fact I would
> > like if there are any "non-Muslims" on this
> list
> > who have visited
> > Pakistan or interacted with its citizens to share
> their
> > experiences.
> > 
> > Yousuf
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kshmendra Kaul
> > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan
> > Statement on Mumbai
> > > To: "Naeem Mohaiemen"
> > <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 2:47 PM
> > > Dear Naeem
> > >  
> > > I fully realise what I wrote and reaffirm the
> > statement. If
> > > you find it unfair, it is perhaps because you are
> not
> > > familiar enough with the realities in Pakistan.
> > >  
> > > Let me repeat what I said (slightly edited):
> > >  
> > > " Hate Agendas run deep in the veins and
> psyche
> > of the
> > > overwhelming majority of Pakistanis"
> > >  
> > > The 'danger' is not in what I said
> but in
> > ignoring
> > > what I said. Ignoring that reality has led to
> allowing
> > the
> > > dangers emanating from Pakistan to go
> unchallenged. 
> > >  
> > > I do not hate Pakistan as presumed by you. Hate
> clouds
> > > well-informed and well-reasoned evaluations. 
> > >  
> > > The 'violent minority' that you refer to
> is
> > not the
> > > totality or completeness of expression of the
> > "Hate
> > > Agendas" I spoke about. The 'National
> Psyche
> > of
> > > Pakistan' is the breeding ground for such
> partial
> > > (violent) expression.
> > >  
> > > Naeem, I suggest to you Sir that Pakistan was
> created
> > > "For Muslims" or "In the name of
> > Islam"
> > > (take your pick), the institution that has held
> it
> > together
> > > since 1947 is the Military Establishment and the
> > > 'ideology' that has held it together is
> not
> > Islam
> > > but "Hate for India".
> > >  
> > > To that "National Hate for India" they
> have
> > > managed to add through the years "National
> Hate
> > for
> > > USA". In fact "National Hate for
> Everyone
> > > Else" including (surprise, surprise) Arabs.
> > >  
> > > The "Hate Agendas", in keeping with
> > > Pakistan's federated structure extend
> themselves
> > to the
> > > mutualities of "Hate Punjabis",
> "Hate
> > > Sindhis", "Hate Mohajirs",
> "Hate
> > > Balochis", "Hate Pathans",
> "Hate
> > > Kashmiris".
> > >  
> > > Let us not forget the packed pockets of
> > "Hate"
> > > based on their own convoluted interpretation of
> Islam
> > and
> > > not just directed towards Music,Dance, Films and
> > Barbers and
> > > Girls' Schools but also "Hate
> Shias",
> > > "Hate Sunnis", "Hate Ahmedis,
> > "Hate
> > > Barelvis", "Hate Deobandhis",
> > "Hate
> > > Wahabis", "Hate Sufis", "Hate
> > > Dargahs".
> > >  
> > > We are talking about HATE in it's most
> intense and
> > > degraded forms of expression and not milder
> attitudes
> > like
> > > dislikes or disagreements.
> > >  
> > > What you say is true (and it is not
> much different in
> > > India) that the "overwhelming majority of
> > Pakistanis
> > > are struggling for roti-kapra-makaan". But
> we are
> > not
> > > talking about the needs of the body here. Those
> needs
> > are
> > > common for all humans.
> > >  
> > > There is a uniqueness in the food (or blood)
> that
> > > satisfies those minds and psyches  that are
> > conditoned to
> > > "Hate" or in some cases the menus
> sought for
> > > "liberating the soul" through the
> > 'destruction
> > > of others'. Study Pakistan to understand and
> > realise
> > > that.
> > >  
> > > Kshmendra
> > >