[Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai

[Kshmendra Kaul]

Dear Yousuf
 
What I meant by the "inner mind" was the 'attitudinal mind' embedded in the psyche through conditioning.
 
Would that apply to all countries and communities? Certainly to some extent in specfic scenarios that would vary for each and so would also vary the intensity of reactions aroused.
 
Jews hate Muslims. Muslims hate Jews. Brits hate the French but happily use French cosmetics/perfumes. Vegetarians have a revulsion towards eating meat but not neccessarily towards meat eaters. Many meat eaters cannot suffer even the thought of eating innards or snakes or dogs or odd looking things like crabs, shrimps, lobsters, squid. Others love eating them. That is the embedded attitudinal psyche.
 
It comes from being conditioned to feel/think/react in that manner either by simple non-instructed imitative behaviour or by consciously being taught/indoctrinated. 
 
Brahmins for example were formally taught to detest Shudras. Colour and Race prejudice is also embedded attitudinal psyche.
 
The best part of this Mind-DNA is that it can be altered. Detoxified perhaps. Easily in some cases and with some difficulty in others. Some changes would take a generation reared in 'sterile non-indoctrination'.
 
Kshmendra
 
PS. I do not agree with your statement that "The governments and the public opinions are formed only by a handful of people in any country.". It varies from country to country. In Pakistan that we were talking about, it is much more complex than most other countries. What is also interesting about Pakistan is the changes since 1947 that have taken place in the Mind-DNA of the "National Psyche". 


--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 7:01 PM

Dear Kshmendra 
Thanks for your clarification, and I am happy to know that you do appreciate
Pakistan and its citizens more than I thought. I was only reacting to the
sentence "hate runs deep in the psyche of majority of Pakistanis"
which sounded alarming. The governments and the public opinions are formed only
by a handful of people in any country. And the act of a few people cannot be
generalized to an entire community and masses. As for how the "inner
mind" of anyone is hidden behind his/her facial expression; can't that
be applied to people of any country or community? 

regards

Yousuf 


--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement on Mumbai
> To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 6:25 PM
> Dear Yousuf
>  
> I will touch upon only some issues since Shumona Goel has
> already branded me a hate monger.
>  
> Yes I have visited Pakistan and not just once. Yes I know
> many Pakistanis personally and some of my dearest friends
> are Pakistanis.
>  
> My experience of personal interaction with Pakistanis is
> no different than yours. In my case this includes almost
> hedonistic wining, dining and partying with them.
>  
> Amongst my favourite poets are some from Pakistan like
> Faiz, Obaidullah Aleem, Parveen Shakir, Amjad Islam Amjad.
> Mehdi Hassan's singing provides food for not just my
> heart but the soul too.
>  
> Yes it is true that by all accounts without any exception,
> Indians who went to Pakistan for the cricket matches had
> nothing but glowing praise for the warmth and hospitality
> they received and the sporting nature of the Pakistani
> crowds.
>  
> Yes it is also true that we in India in comparison were
> most shoddy in reciprocating that warmth and hospitality
> when Pakistanis came to India for the cricket matches and
> our crowds were boorish in their behaviour. 
>  
> Having said all of that, you would appreciate that
> relationships on a personal level have nothing to do with
> what country a person is from. Nor can they form the basis
> of making a macro level evaluation of the 'psyche'
> of a country. 
>  
> The 'inner mind' transcends the behaviour of
> 'hail fellow well met' pleasant situations. 
>  
> As an example, it would be foolish for anyone to believe
> that the warmth generated by Vajpayee and even someone
> like Advani during their visits to Pakistan is in any way a
> reflection of their "inner mind". 
>  
> Yousuf, at one point in my life, I had the easy choice of
> nurturing for ever after a HATE for Islam and Pakistan.
> Instead I chose to study about and understand both. I will
> not go into details of 'how and where', but I
> continue to monitor Pakistan on an almost daily basis.
>  
> That is where my evaluations come from.
>  
> Kshmendra
>  
> PS. As an Indian, I desire a stable Pakistan with a vibrant
> democracy. That, in my opinion is what is best for India.
>  
>   
> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan Statement
> on Mumbai
> To: "Naeem Mohaiemen"
> <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 3:28 PM
> 
> Dear Kshmendra
> I am tempted to intervene in your description of how
> "hate" is
> promoted in Pakistan according to you. Have you ever
> visited Pakistan? Do you
> know any Pakistanis (or met them) personally from whom you
> got these vibes. I
> know I am falling into a clich'ed trap, but I wanted to
> let you know that
> almost all Indians who ever visited Pakistan or met people
> from there recently
> have talked about how warmly they were treated when they
> visited there as
> Indians. I (an Indian) myself spent about 5 months in
> Lahore, Karachi and
> Islamabad in 2005 (as part of a fellowship), and I did not
> meet a single person
> there who hated Indians or Hindus (at least they didn't
> say it to me, nor
> did their conversations revealed this hate you talk about).
> An average Pakistani
> knew and appreciated much more about India than any Indians
> would about
> Pakistan. Most of them looked up to India in terms of the
> progress it has made
> and they love Indian movies, music and every thing else. In
>  fact the moment they got to know I was an Indian they
> would hug me warmly.
> When they found I was a Muslim, they were slightly
> disappointed - they were
> actually looking forward to meet a Hindu! When I was in
> Pakistan, there was a
> cricket match series. The Indian team visited Lahore and
> won a one-day match.
> The victory of India was celebrated by Pakistanis with
> firecrackers and sweets.
> In contrast, when the Pakistani team was about to win in
> Delhi (in the same
> series), the disappointed Delhiites threw stones into the
> pitch (at Kotla
> stadium). I can go on and on about this, but I am sure my
> descriptions would be
> utterly misunderstood in the present scenario.
> 
> Having said the above, I will not claim that the
> fundamentalist elements and
> the terror-training doesn't exist in Pakistan. It is
> proven, and more than
> India, the Pakistani extremist have been destructive to
> their own country. They
> strike at will at places like Karachi and Islamabad killing
> hundreds of Muslims
> with no regret. So these are Muslims killing other Muslims.
> Yes there is
> hate-proganda about other sects and ideologies (as you
> listed), but I didn't
> find a single person affected by it. You must also realize
> that since the time
> of Musharraf, the top leadership is seriously concerned and
> working towards
> eliminating the blot of terror from Pakistan. Maybe the
> situation is so out of
> control and complex that it will take more time and effort.
> The powerful
> religio-political institutions built in both countries will
> take a lot of effort
> to break down. But in short, I do not agree with you that
> "Hate Agendas run
> deep in the veins and psyche of the
>  overwhelming majority of Pakistanis". Common
> Pakistanis are so curious to
> visit India and meet Indians. I am talking from personal
> experience, and would
> like to know if you have had any personal experiences
> yourself. In fact I would
> like if there are any "non-Muslims" on this list
> who have visited
> Pakistan or interacted with its citizens to share their
> experiences.
> 
> Yousuf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Joint India-Pakistan
> Statement on Mumbai
> > To: "Naeem Mohaiemen"
> <naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 2:47 PM
> > Dear Naeem
> >  
> > I fully realise what I wrote and reaffirm the
> statement. If
> > you find it unfair, it is perhaps because you are not
> > familiar enough with the realities in Pakistan.
> >  
> > Let me repeat what I said (slightly edited):
> >  
> > " Hate Agendas run deep in the veins and psyche
> of the
> > overwhelming majority of Pakistanis"
> >  
> > The 'danger' is not in what I said but in
> ignoring
> > what I said. Ignoring that reality has led to allowing
> the
> > dangers emanating from Pakistan to go unchallenged. 
> >  
> > I do not hate Pakistan as presumed by you. Hate clouds
> > well-informed and well-reasoned evaluations. 
> >  
> > The 'violent minority' that you refer to is
> not the
> > totality or completeness of expression of the
> "Hate
> > Agendas" I spoke about. The 'National Psyche
> of
> > Pakistan' is the breeding ground for such partial
> > (violent) expression.
> >  
> > Naeem, I suggest to you Sir that Pakistan was created
> > "For Muslims" or "In the name of
> Islam"
> > (take your pick), the institution that has held it
> together
> > since 1947 is the Military Establishment and the
> > 'ideology' that has held it together is not
> Islam
> > but "Hate for India".
> >  
> > To that "National Hate for India" they have
> > managed to add through the years "National Hate
> for
> > USA". In fact "National Hate for Everyone
> > Else" including (surprise, surprise) Arabs.
> >  
> > The "Hate Agendas", in keeping with
> > Pakistan's federated structure extend themselves
> to the
> > mutualities of "Hate Punjabis", "Hate
> > Sindhis", "Hate Mohajirs", "Hate
> > Balochis", "Hate Pathans", "Hate
> > Kashmiris".
> >  
> > Let us not forget the packed pockets of
> "Hate"
> > based on their own convoluted interpretation of Islam
> and
> > not just directed towards Music,Dance, Films and
> Barbers and
> > Girls' Schools but also "Hate Shias",
> > "Hate Sunnis", "Hate Ahmedis,
> "Hate
> > Barelvis", "Hate Deobandhis",
> "Hate
> > Wahabis", "Hate Sufis", "Hate
> > Dargahs".
> >  
> > We are talking about HATE in it's most intense and
> > degraded forms of expression and not milder attitudes
> like
> > dislikes or disagreements.
> >  
> > What you say is true (and it is not much different in
> > India) that the "overwhelming majority of
> Pakistanis
> > are struggling for roti-kapra-makaan". But we are
> not
> > talking about the needs of the body here. Those needs
> are
> > common for all humans.
> >  
> > There is a uniqueness in the food (or blood) that
> > satisfies those minds and psyches  that are
> conditoned to
> > "Hate" or in some cases the menus sought for
> > "liberating the soul" through the
> 'destruction
> > of others'. Study Pakistan to understand and
> realise
> > that.
> >  
> > Kshmendra
> >