[Reader-list] Is Antulay really pro-Pakistan?

[Kshmendra Kaul]

Dear Fatima
 
Let me start with your statement  "..... and Karkare was in any case on their hit-list." 
 
On what basis do you make this ridiculous assertion that Karkare was on the "hit-list" of the Pakistani Terrorists? Do you have any evidence at all to support that statement?
 
Maybe you did not realise what you were saying. That defines a 'mind-set' in you where from you will unthinkingly state any half-truths and lies or distort facts to suit you.
 
You might say many times over that you do not 'believe in a conspiracy theory' but your posts in this string are contrary to that claim of yours. Propagation of 'conspiracy theories' with your arguments stating how they could be plausible is nothing else but your taking the conspiracy theories seriously if not actually subscribing to them. 
 
With Karkare's death has there been a set-back to the investigations into the Malegaon blasts case? I am sure there has because Karkare was leading it. Mark that word "leading".
 
It would be idiotic for anyone to believe that Karkare alone by himself was the Lone Ranger of the investigations and that the investigations did not 'belong' to his unit. It would be idiotic for anyone to believe that the investigating unit would  not have been given the 'enabling' permissions / support / assurances from both the bureaucratic and political czars.
 
Unless you and those (whether Muslims or other Indians) who subscribe to "conspiracy of Karkare's killing" theory have deliberately become blind, even after Karkare's death there are reports on the continuation and progress of the investigations into the Malegaon blasts.
 
Consider this that, the ones you say "believe in the conspiracy theory', the "many Muslims" and those in "Muslim dominated area" are existing in mind-ghettos of perhaps their own making but most certainly mind-ghettos created by people like you and Antulay where it suits you to barb-wire their confines through conspiracy theories meant to exploit their insecurities.
 
If you are truly interested in the welfare of the Muslims of India, then through speech and action take them out of their mind-ghettos and free them from their insecurities. Muslims need to realise this that there are an overwhelmingly larger number of Non-Muslim Indians who will not accept Muslims as a community of Indian citizenry being demonised, an overwhelmingly larger number that those who would want otherwise. Both the Media and the political matrices in India testify to that.
 
You have written "many who died in Mumbai were Muslim". What is this obsession with Muslims? Muslims did not die. Some Indians died some foreigners died. Certainly there was no 'secular' programming in the chambers of the weapons of the terrorists that ensured selective faith based killing even when randomly fired.
 
Irrespective of what anyone says, when facts are more than evident it would be senile for investigations to probe "assumptions" and "doubts". How can you even think of putting forward that suggestion. At the same time I would say that if the captured terrorist Kasab turns out to be something other than what is known of him today, then most certainly there should be a full-blooded 'probe'.
 
Your choice of the word "euphoric" to describe the "patriotism" in the aftermath of the Mumbai Terror Attack sounds convoluted and is certainly distasteful. The "patriotism" has been provoked by "terror attacks". 
 
Kshmendra   
 
 
 
 
  

--- On Sat, 12/20/08, Fatima फ़ातिमा <fatimaschool45 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Fatima फ़ातिमा <fatimaschool45 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is Antulay really pro-Pakistan?
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: "Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 8:46 PM

Dear Kshmendra
Thanks for defending me earlier. I still did not say that I believe in
the conspiracy theory. My contention simply was that things are not so
black-and-white as they are being made so. In any case, Antulay also
said "Of course Karkare was killed by the terrorists - even a fool
knows that... but there is ...a terrorism plus something". We all know
that the terrorists came from Pakistan, and Karkare was in any case on
their hit-list. But some people are also saying that with his murder,
there has been a major setback to the investigation in the Malegaon
blast accused case, which is rather sad. And the BJP-family has
certainly gained out of it. When I said many Muslims believe in the
conspiracy theory, there maybe some truth in it - you have to come to
a Muslim dominated area and talk to some people to know what I am
talking about. But once again, having doubts and conspiracies doesn't
prove that they are anti-national. I am sure they are also pained by
the death of so many innocent people (and many who died in Mumbai were
Muslim), but there is some uneasiness about accepting the lead story
as truth. This also doesn't mean a denial-mode, but its simply an
insecurity that has set in in the community.

No one should believe anything as truth until and unless things have
been probed properly. I think even Shuddha is saying the same thing.
(I wonder if you would call him too anti-India). When we talk about a
probe, most assumptions and investigations start with DOUBTS. But why
does one have to take doubt as a sign of anti-nationalism. At the
moment we are all bathing in a sea of euphoric patriotism, and cannot
tolerate any DOUBT. But yes, as Shuddha says, one has to be careful
and cautious about what one says and doesn't say.

So I guess I should keep quite even I have doubts in mind, since I
have to prove my affiliation to the nation.

Fatima


On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Dear Fatima
>
> Two days back I criticised Pawan for what I thought was an intemperate
> comment directed at you over your "Kasab...Nepal....India"
posting.
>
> Today I see your intentions as suspect. Earlier you forswore that you do
not
> want to promote any 'conspiracy theory'. Today you have done
exactly the
> opposite.
>
> On what basis do you say that "...majority of Muslims in India have
this
> doubt any way" (about Karkare's death). Are you the voice of the
Muslims of
> India? Do you have any means of evidencing your claim?
>
> Antulay was an idiot to make his comment publicly in the given atmosphere
> post Mumbai Terror Attacks.
>
> Already Antulay's comment is being extensively quoted by Pakistanis.
> Antulay (by his indiscrete questioning) became a proxy voice for those
> Pakistanis who continue to be in denial about the Pakistani connection to
> the Mumbai Terror Attacks and became the proxy voice for those Pakistanis
> who want to divert the attention away from the Pakistani connection to the
> Mumbai Terror Attacks.
>
> Antulay placed himself in the "proxy voice for Pakistan"
position
> unwittingly. You are doing it deliberately.
>
> Antulay is a Minister in the Govt. of India. He is a Congress partyman. He
> could always have discussed the "suspicions about Karkare's
death"
> internally withing the Party / Government. Both would have been more than
> keen to enquire into or exploit that suspicion at the appropiate time
since
> it would mean discrediting / attacking the Hindutvavaadis.
>
> You seem to be intent on making this a Muslim versus Non-Muslim divide.
That
> makes your motives Anti-India.
>
> You asked why Non-Muslims in India and on this List are not asking the
same
> questions as Antulay. Consider this, that they alongwith Muslims might not
> be as foolish as Antulay or as you and might think that thia is not the
> point of time when such questions should be asked on the basis of some
vague
> 'conspiracy theory'.
>
> Incidentally, I myself had written this (copied to you):
>
> """""" The Hindutvavaadis had been with
frequency and great vehemence
> ascribing motives to and attacking Hemant Karkare's investigations
into the
> involvement of "Hindu Terrorists" in the Malegaon Blasts. It is
only natural
> that Karkare's killing (with a bullet-proof vest donned) should not
only
> raise a few eybrows but bring into the arena questions about whether he
was
> eliminated by "Hindu Terrorists". Such suspicions might be
far-fetched,
> might be without duly investigating the facts of 'how and where'
he died but
> such suspicions are not illogical. """"
>
> Even if you read it, you seem to have been keener to make that dramatic
> statement about Non-muslims in India and on this List.
>
> I repeat that you seem to be intent on making this a Muslim versus
> Non-Muslim divide. That makes your motives Anti-India.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Fatima फ़ातिमा
<fatimaschool45 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Fatima फ़ातिमा <fatimaschool45 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Reader-list] Is Antulay really pro-Pakistan?
> To: "Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 12:40 PM
>
> Dear friends
> I have no sympathy for politicians usually, but this case has made me
> think a lot. I am amazed that Antulay is being hounded by all
> including the Congress for expressing a doubt. The truth is that a
> majority of Muslims in India have this doubt any way - but that does
> not prove that they supporting Pakistani viewpoint. Why is everything
> to be seen as anti-India and pro-Pakistan terms? I am really wondering
> if there is no non-Muslim in this country who is ready to ask the same
> question which Antulay asked? Not even on this list?
>
> Please see this interesting view from another "supporter of
Pakistan"
>
>
> From: "zohra javed" <zohra83 at rediffmail.com>
> To: zohra83 at rediffmail.com
>
> A.R.Antulay's remark about a thorough probe into the causes of ATS
> Chief Hemant Karkare's martyrdom have drawn a lot of flak
> from the most expected quarters. It should have been surprising though
> for anyone to oppose a proper investigation specially
> into the deaths of Mr.Karkare and the other two officers who were
> killed along with him. Mr.Antulay has raised a valid point
> and instead of bashing him down and asking for explainations on the
> issue from the PM everyone must support Antulay on this
> point. Narender Modi offered a crore of rupees to Mrs.Karkare, but his
> party is opposing someone who wants a thorough probe
> into the tragic and untimely death of Mr.Karkare...what kind of
> sympathy is this? In all probablity Mrs.Karkare would much
> appreciate if the killers of her late husband are brought to justice
> rather than accepting a political charity.
> Asking for new laws is fine. But as Advani has admitted in the
> Parliament that there is no law that has not been misused, I
> wonder why the existing laws are not implemented in letter and spirit
> to begin with. It is very important to understand that
> laws are for the smooth running of a system and for the protection of
> the weak. They are neither prestige issues nor a matter
> to make election issues out of them or score political and social
> points. Indeed that political party is best which can
> implement laws and ensure a rule of law without any bias or double
> standards.
> The common people have time and again proved their innocence and
> smugness by allowing the politicians to confuse them. Every
> time some pertinent questions are raised a smoke-screen comes up
> beyond which the path becomes blurred. What is more ironical
> is that anyone daring to venture beyond is bogged down as being either
> foolish or a traitor.
> Einstein said, "the important thing is not to stop questioning".
> Indeed it is by raising questions and finding their true
> answers that one can reach a satisfactory conclusion. But most of the
> time people are not encouraged to raise their doubts.
>
> And if some stray questioning voices become loud they are branded as
> anti-national.
> Fighting terror is a serious matter. Every angle must be probed.
> Nothing must be left to chance. But even after so many
> blasts in various Indian cities and now the carnage in Mumbai our
> investigating agencies, media and the political parties do
> not seem to have woken up to the real danger. There are too many
> loopholes and loose ends in the theories that are being put
> forward. What is wrong in probing the Israeli angle a bit more
> thoroughly? Or ponder a little more over the fact that there
> was a person called Ken Heywood, whose name had come up in connection
> with some blasts in the past. However, not only was he
> allowed to travel at will, he almost instantly got a "clean
chit".
>
> If we are genuinely concerned about our nation's security and
> integrity, we have to rise above bias. And it will be the
> common man who has to do this because it is the common man who suffers
> in these tragedies that reap rich harvest of votes for
> one coalition or the other, but nothing changes on the ground for the
> common man. It is not just a matter of what Antulay
> said. He is a seasoned politician and a die-hard Nehru-Gandhi
> loyalist. In such a scenario I don't understand how he could
> even utter a word of embarassment for his bosses. Hence his remarks
> cannot be only his own nor can he be speaking for his
> community.
>
> The point is who benefits from all of these activities. Are we
> supposed to believe that the so called religious leaders
> rolling in luxuries, blessing politicians before and after elections,
> are really true to their religion? Can there at all be
> any love of God behind brutal killings of the innocent? And why on
> earth do these so called religious leaders not take on the
> "non-believers" themselves? The nationality or the religion of a
> person involved in terrorist activities has ceased to be a
> pointer as to the cause. It will indeed be worthwhile to take every
> detail into account before coming to conclusions as we
> must all remember that only those who fear the outcome would oppose an
> unbiased probe into the "business of terror".
>
> Zohra Javed
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