[Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose NationalIdentity Cards-6

[taraprakash]

Dear Taha and all. i find myself not capable of considering this issue from a negative perspective, therefore unfit to carry forward this discussion. All I know is that most of us use some kind of identity proof on day to day basis. I am neither a poet or a philosopher to be able to delve in to various facets of identity. I personally believe that you are given a name by the society and you are given a more or less distinctive facade by the nature. A proof of identity certifies the relationship between the the signifier and the signified. That there are loopholes in the system cannot be the sole reason for rejecting the identity cards. And no they don't have to be private agencies issuing the identity cards. Even in the mecca of privatization, the state identity cards and driving licences are issued by government agencies. The individual states in the United States issue state id cards to those who cannot drive. Otherwise their driving license is the state id. I would think that rather than begging the state several times for passport, ration card, pan card, voters id card etc one card can be issued. India and other countries in the subcontinent are not the best at keeping records but things are changing. They must change if they are not. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Taha Mehmood 
  To: taraprakash 
  Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 2:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose NationalIdentity Cards-6


  Dear Taraprakash,

  Thank you for your mail. I think that your suggestion is interesting. By that I mean it hints at a possibility or perhaps range of possibilities. These possibilities or the possibility, I think, tends to follow a trajectory of thought which is more often than not -prescriptive- in nature. Abstract ideas like nation states are imagined as not as social processes or negotiable entities but are perhaps understood through the most cliched metaphor of that of a -body-. Any idea which challenges the dominant idea  or questions it or tries to engage with it is read as a disease afflicting the -body-. Hence our sensibility informs us to look for the cure. 

  There is of course nothing wrong in prescriptive thinking, but i believe that in order to cure a disease we must first have a through understanding of the nature of the disease. I am in no position to agree or disagree whether we must have or we must not have a national identity card. This I believe is the job of the privacy lobby, or the smart card lobby. 

  I am interested in more fundamental issues. These are the issues of individual identity. For instance What is individual identity? What is nature of individual identity? Can the identity of a person be mapped at all? If so, how? or Why is it okay for us to share the most 'inalienable' part of our subjectivity like our fingerprints with mostly corrupt, often inept, state agencies?

  Even if we have two identity cards as suggested by you, then don't you think that the premises in your argument are rather benign. The only way with which we can begin to think about an identity document issued by an international agency like UN would be when- 1) All the countries of this world are able to conduct a successful census of all the peoples of this world. 2) The data generated with such an exercise is without an error. 3) All the countries of this world agree to share this data with UN (Underlying assumption being that all the countries of this world -TRUST- UN on an equal basis) 4) The UN prints identity cards and distributes them to all the countries of this world. 5) The individual state governments then create a mechanism to dispatch an identity card, issued by the UN to each of the six billion of us. 6) We, the people of this world, get an identity card which has a correct Name, Date of birth, Permanent Residence, etc etc printed on it. 

  Do you really think that having an agency like UN would solve the problem of correct and a legitimate documented individual identity? When we really do not to have a clear idea as to what do we mean by individual identity? 

  IF this being the case then would it be nice to have UN act as the guardian angel of our individual identities or should we try to first generate more discussion or debate and think through these notions before allowing anyone to be the sole custodian of our identities. 

  Warm regards 

  Taha 





  On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 4:48 AM, taraprakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:

    You are right Taha that the identity can be manipulated by the state to prove or disprove claims. Money gets you everything in the subcontinent. So it is possible to have multiple identities. For all we know, tomorrow Aditya Nigam, Amrish Mishra, Ajiz Barni, or other conspiracy theorists in Indian and Pakistani media, may find Kasab's Indian passport under the seat of a taxi he used before being captured. It takes less than rs2000 to get a fake Indian passport.
    Congress had an MP from Asam who was actually a fugitive, citizen of Nepal required in Nepal in connection of a murder case. 
    So yes, it is possible to give people multiple identities or leave people without it and multi-purpose identity cards may not help in the matter. I wonder if my suggestion will sound to you too ridiculous to consider. But perhaps we should have duel identities. One issued by one's respective country and the other by a world agency like UN. Such a system might help to determine the identity/nationality  of those captured in covert operations. Pakistan today claimed that they have arrested an Indian national in connection with a recent bomb blast in Pakistan. The police of J&K supposedly arrested three Pakistanis a couple of days back. What if the UN had everybody's record in their database so that when such a claim was made, they could prove the veracity of such a claim. 

    Regards
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Taha Mehmood 
      To: taraprakash ; sarai list 
      Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:01 AM
      Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose NationalIdentity Cards-6



      Dear Taraprakash, 

      Thank you for your comment. I totally agree with your views, that people of the subcontinent have a right to have a proof of their existence. 

      I think any statement which asserts that, in a Nation state every legitimate person must have a right to legitimate identity, is based on two underlying assumptions. First being, that the idea of identity is stable and it can be mapped and the second, that the State is a -just- State. That, it will, in the discharge of its duties to accord identity to legitimate citizens will, act in the most benign fashion. This is not to suggest that if a State is not  perceived of as -just- then it loses its moral right to give a certificate of citizenship but to caution that if perhaps the case then, any such exercise will be bound to result in a deepening of existing social divisions. 

      Hence, in a situation where we in India are still grappling with gross mismanagement of earlier forms of identity documents, like ration cards, we need to consider seriously, whether we are prepared to deal with yet another exercise to completely digitize personal information of around one billion people. 

      You may like to read a Times of India news report indicative of malaise I have mentioned above-
      http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3208865,prtpage-1.cms

      Further more, just as it is a matter of great ease, if our personal information is stored in a digital database, which could then easily be manipulated in any form, we must not forget that it is also matter of great ease with which is could be deleted.  

      Hence, if a Name and a number in some National identity database becomes the sole criteria to ascertain and determine the identity and citizenship of a person on legitimate grounds, then we must not be surprised at all in the face of a Kasab like case. 

      I completely empathize with the frustration of the Indian Government. We all know, that Kasab is Pakistani. We all know that his father has said so. Respectable Pakistanis like Asma Jehangir have said so. The Mumbai police has said so. And Kasab himself has said so. 

      Which begs the question that how could we possibly determine whether Kasab is a Pakistani or not, when the official Government position is that his name do not figure in the national database. That no national identification number has been issued in his name. That he does not posses a national citizenship document. 

      If this being the case- then would it be right for us in India to go for a national identity card or perhaps should we try to spend more time thinking about the process through which we can have a more informed debate about the idea of identity first, and then maybe move forward to establish regimes that are involved in the operational or logistical end of the identity discourse.

      Regards 

      Taha 



      On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 5:49 AM, taraprakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:

        Hi Taha and all. The issue of identity card should also be approached from a different angle. Pakistan government has recently come up with the statement that Kasab is not registered as a citizen in the country and that the state did not issue him any identity card.
        Earlier, CPI(M) refused to accept the fact of many deaths during Nandi Gram and Singur crisis. Since many of those killed were not registered on any official document, it was difficult to prove many deaths. I believe the same happened in Nithari case of cannibalism. Around 10 years back another scandal was brought to the light in UP. Some people had managed to obtain death certificates for their relatives so that these fraudsters could misappropriate their land. Many officially dead people had to go through long court cases to prove that actually they were not dead.

        Many in Indian sub-continent do not exist officially. I believe it is their right to have a proof of their existence, should such a need arise.


        Regards
        ----- Original Message ----- From: "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
        To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
        Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:08 PM
        Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose NationalIdentity Cards-6



          http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2002/rmay2002/07052002/r0705200210.html
          7th May, 2002

          NATIONAL IDENTITY CARDS
          ------------------------------

          A proposal to issue Multipurpose National Identity Cards (MNICs) to Indian
          citizens, including the people residing in the border areas of the country
          is receiving Government's attention. These cards, apart from providing a
          credible identification system, may have multifarious uses.

          The issue of MNICs would involve creation of an identification system for
          more than one billion citizens, streamlining the existing machinery for the
          registration of birth and deaths at the grass root level and choices of
          institutional as well as technological options for the creation of an
          integrated data base of personal identities capable of being continuously
          updated. The Government would finalize its decision only after an in-depth
          examination of all relevant issues and after making necessary preparations,
          including the legal backing to the scheme.

          Issuing National Identity Cards under the provisions of the Citizenship Act,
          1955 is one of the options available.

          The issue of National Identity Cards was discussed and endorsed in the
          conference of Chief Ministers on Internal Security held on 17th November
          2001.

          The information was given in the Lok Sabha by the Minister of State for Home
          Shri Ch. Vidyasagar Rao in a written reply today.

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