[Reader-list] what is to be done?

[S.Fatima]

Dear Vivek
You have a knack of making a hill of out of a mole -
and all in the wrong direction. In my analogy of a
limousine going through filth, the filth is not at all
supposed to mean the economic status of people writing
high-volume hate-mails. But by calling someone's views
as "bullshit", it is you who is demeaning them. (Ok,
I'd like to take back the word "slum" - I apologize
for it). My problem with your mail was that as long as
you apply those filters and send the unwanted mails to
whatever insulting folder quietly, it is fine. But by
being sarcastic about it (as in your original message)
we are only infuriating them further. Will that help
in breaking any ice? Or maybe we do'nt want to break
any ice.

I don't think I'm playing into the hands of these
propagandists - I'm only complicating this issue a
little further, because I believe that ignoring them
and and not answering their simplistic questions is
not a long-term solution. If you read some of my
earlier mails, I have mostly been advocating DIALOGUE
between the two-parties. Now your immediate reaction
would be: "huh, these guys don't deserve an ear - you
can't have a dialogue with them". Yes I know it is
very irritating to read through most of those
hate-mails. But the point is that all their rigid
stereotypes and biases are a reality and most of us
don't have the time, patience or inclination to sit
with these folks and talk. An email discussion in any
case doesn't lead to anything fruitful, especially
when it comes to such a topic. So, the least we can do
is to ignore them. But being sarcastic is worse.

Another point : you say that since those folks are
using broadband to send that many mails, they must be
rich enough to be called elite. Well then, what
happened to the claim that internet/broadband is
supposed to be empowering and democratizing the thrid
world, and so on. You seem to be defining the access
to internet still in caste/class terms!

cheers


--- Vivek Narayanan <vivek at sarai.net> wrote:

> Dear Fatima,
> 
> Absolutely no personal vendetta intended-- and I
> find it hard to 
> understand how you might read what I have written as
> a "personal 
> vendetta".  I am merely addressing a situation
> (*without* advocating the 
> removal of anyone from the list) where the list has
> lost dozens of 
> readers who are not easily able to sort through for
> important 
> announcements or discussions that they might
> actually want to 
> participate in.  There have been some important
> recent events that 
> members of the reader list have missed because they
> have not been able 
> to sort through all the messages.
> 
> But I'd like to address a more important and
> revealing slip in your 
> email.  Once again, you insist on suggesting/
> inferring that a set of 
> posters are residents of "slums" and from non-elite
> backgrounds based on 
> their political views and incoherence.  Please
> refrain from making such 
> assumptions.
> 
> Apart from this being very demeaning to a number of
> non-elites who don't 
> hold forth with those simplistic views, who don't
> share those political 
> views against muslims, etc, and who cannot afford to
> spam the list with 
> up to five messages a day because of their lack of
> internet access-- 
> apart from these kinds of insulting inferences and
> assumptions, you're 
> also demonstrably wrong.  The members whose posts
> end up in my bullshit 
> folder all post with such a great frequency that
> they must either have 
> personal broadband access or, at the very least, be
> spending hundreds of 
> rupees a day at cybercafes.  They are elites
> themselves.
> 
> And, moreover, apart from being wrong, you're
> playing right into the 
> hands of these propagandists, who would like to
> claim that their 
> anti-muslim and jingoistic views represent the views
> of "the people", 
> "the masses", "the non-elite" and so on.  They would
> make the same 
> claims as you that anyone who believes in equality
> or questions the 
> violence of the nation-state or anyone interested in
> meaningful 
> discussion beyond simplistic coercive and bullying
> language must be 
> elite.  So do be careful before your metaphors
> actually begin to do some 
> damage.
> 
> In fact, I'd rather not get into metaphors, since a
> metaphor by 
> definition replaces its object, sometimes making the
> object harder to 
> see with clarity, but just for the sake of
> underlining this, let me 
> offer a counter-metaphor, even if, like all
> metaphors, it will distort, 
> it will fail to represent the situation completely:
> 
> what if it is me who is walking on the street.  Yes
> indeed the street 
> may be dirty, maybe it is strewn with shit and dust
> but let's say that 
> the shit doesn't really bother me as much as it
> seems to bother you.  It 
> really doesn't, even in real life-- if I happen to
> step in shit while on 
> my way to work, well, I scrape my shoe against the
> pavement and I keep 
> walking.  What if I am walking on the street then,
> enjoying its 
> productive chaos and its instinctive tolerance for
> diversity, its 
> camaraderie.  Let's say a limousine passes by with
> people who are *not* 
> subaltern, people who are actually quite powerful,
> maybe they have 
> access to the police and the security forces and the
> intelligence 
> services.  Let's say that it is these people in the
> limousine who can 
> talk so blithely and simplistically of kicking the
> muslims out and 
> defending the nation, because they stand to benefit
> and because they 
> would be shielded from the ensuing violence
> themselves.  Let's say that 
> for some reason you want to try and get in that
> limousine with them 
> because you believe that you can actually convince
> them, that they will 
> change their minds simply on witnessing the goodness
> of your heart.  
> Well, good for you.  For my part I already know well
> what the people in 
> the limousine have to say, I have heard them out,
> and I know well that 
> they have not a jot of respect for me, or you.  It's
> my right to stay 
> out of that limousine, Fatima.  I already know what
> their views are, and 
> I know what the costs of those views are.
> 
> Vivek
> 
> S.Fatima wrote:
> > Dear Vivek
> > Sorry to sound like this, but some of such mails
> from
> > you reek of elitism. Redirecting some mails to the
> > bullshit folder is one thing, but insulting them
> > further goes to another level. Isn't that a
> personal
> > vendetta that some on this list are requesting not
> to
> > get into.
> > Your calmness is akin to sitting in a limousine
> which
> > is driving through the filthy roads and slums,
> which
> > your darkened windows don't allow you to see.
> >
> > sf
> >
> > --- Vivek Narayanan <vivek at sarai.net> wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> Strange...
> 
> 



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