[Reader-list] gujrat election

Pawan Durani pawan.durani at gmail.com
Fri Jan 4 10:35:22 IST 2008 

Partha ,

If some people have an interpretation of society , it may be termed as a
personal view. I believe a Dalit is as much a Hindu as a Brahmin or a
Kshytra is.And I believe that all those who lure poor with money to convert
should be stopped as well.

And me , though being a Brahmin by birth , never believed that I stood
between a human and God. Neither were we taught so by our parents.

Pawan

On 1/4/08, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Pawan,
>
> Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and
> re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite
> interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting.
>
> Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree
> with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on
> some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'.
>
> 1.  Sex education
>      It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of
> blouses
>      (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants
> instead
>      of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British
> hangover for what
>      they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there
> are countless
>      instances that will prove this to you.
>
> 2.  Reservations
>      Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a
> whole from
>      the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact
> that 'lower castes'
>      are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be
> from birth,
>      I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or
> lower) than
>      me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just
> because
>      some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are
> automatically
>      superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because
> someone
>      is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically
> incapable.
>      And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and
> incapable)
>      irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a
> bad high caste
>      ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't
> the Indian Nation
>      need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness?
>
> 3.  Foreign Investments
>      The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The
> bigger evil
>      (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat
> the state and the
>      law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram
> to the Registrar
>      of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is
> subject to many
>      regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at
> catching the
>      people who are supposed to administrate it for public good.
>
>
> 4.  Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the
> British came
>      into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on
> Shiv Ratri in India.
>      Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or
> gender - it is purely
>      a personal problem that can afflict anyone.
>
> I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which
> I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu
> (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right
> to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me
> what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think.  As
> a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal
> belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally
> unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree
> with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that
> signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu')
>
> Rgds, Partha
> ..........................
>
> On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Adhimoolan ,
> >
> >
> >
> > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are
> > many who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu .
> >
> >
> >
> > It hurts
> >
> >
> >
> > God Bless....
> >
> >
> >
> > Pawan
> >
> >
> >
> >  On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam <vadhimoolam at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >   I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing
> > > that a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist
> > > forces. The return of barbarism.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > *From:* chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> > >
> > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi <vrjogi at hotmail.com> ; reader-list at sarai.net
> > >
> > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com
> > >
> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM
> > >
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
> > >
> > >
> > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation
> > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science
> > > is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the
> > > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has
> > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly
> > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the
> > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and
> > > girls around in the name freedom.
> > >
> > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces,
> > > separating people from people.
> > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at
> > > a ver fast pace
> > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all
> > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare
> > > the nation as Islamic state
> > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying
> > > lands through local Muslims
> > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions
> > > are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms
> > > are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex
> > > educated children of careless parents.
> > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying
> > > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who
> > > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it
> > > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both
> > > area.
> > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries
> > > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work
> > > for India
> > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in
> > > our own country.
> > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when
> > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to
> > > achieve this nation as a group.
> > >
> > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now
> > > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and
> > > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over.
> > >
> > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk
> > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as
> > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not
> > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have
> > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news.
> > >
> > > Jai Hind,
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Vedavati Jogi <vrjogi at hotmail.com>
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
> > >
> > >
> > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country?
> > > don't you stay in this country?
> > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism?
> > > are muslims 'bigger' than  country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To:
> > > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com;
> > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election>
> > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated
> > > to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American
> > > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners
> > > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If
> > > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second
> > > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of
> > > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the
> > > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were >
> > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che>
> > > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and
> > > > Muslims had
> > >  no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena
> > > for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments.
> > > How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai?
> > > Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you
> > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just
> > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I
> > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core
> > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra
> > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be
> > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power?
> > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of
> > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya
> > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi"
> > >  <vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; <
> > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent:
> > > Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat
> > > election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if
> > > you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to
> > > pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well
> > > but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never
> > > understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots?
> > > who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning
> > > this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india,
> > > given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by
> > > hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to
> > > build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if
> > > you too are the sons of this soil,
> > >  why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor?
> > > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has
> > > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that
> > > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are
> > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from
> > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your
> > > chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere
> > > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for
> > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then
> > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform
> > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields
> > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never
> > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this
> > > 'false > >
> > >  propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if >
> > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been
> > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am
> > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take
> > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to
> > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims
> > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat
> > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is
> > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians &
> > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if
> > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation
> > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try
> > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date:
> > > Tue, 25 Dec
> > >  2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > >
> > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: >
> > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,>
> > > > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > >
> > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > >
> > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > >
> > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > >
> > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > >
> > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > >
> > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > >
> > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > >
> > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > >
> > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > >
> > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in
> > >  Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken
> > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra
> > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass
> > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be
> > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be
> > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM,
> > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india
> > > is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of
> > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had
> > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after
> > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter
> > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too
> > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave
> > > reservations to bc, obcs, by
> > >  reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs
> > > and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim
> > > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain,
> > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of
> > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among
> > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination,
> > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of
> > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't
> > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not
> > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including
> > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims,
> > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former
> > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this
> > > secularism practised by
> > >  congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus.
> > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking
> > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin
> > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about
> > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot
> > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >>
> > > >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From:
> > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat
> > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >>
> > > >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who
> > > are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> >
> > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > >
> > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So,
> > > when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won..
> > >  in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has
> > > yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when
> > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single
> > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> >
> > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word >
> > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever
> > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not
> > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the
> > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > >
> > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that
> > > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever
> > > Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not
> > > religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> >
> > > Don't you think
> > >  that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > >
> > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > >
> > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if
> > > there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and
> > > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran...
> > > Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in
> > > the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is
> > > what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have
> > > intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to
> > > indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them
> > > brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the
> > > day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers..
> > > the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism
> > > would meet
> > >  its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would
> > > not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> >
> > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected >
> > > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe
> > > Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > -----
> > > Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To<bawazainab79 at gmail.com%3ETo>:
> > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc<taraprakash at gmail.com%3ECc>:
> > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent<vrjogi at hotmail.com%3ESent>:
> > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat
> > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a
> > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for
> > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the
> > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not
> > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for
> > >  my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that
> > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's
> > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again,
> > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On
> > > Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com > wrote:> > >
> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > >
> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > >
> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> >
> > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > >
> > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat >
> > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> >
> > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May >
> > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > >
> > > next
> > >  time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com
> > > >> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent:
> > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > >
> > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > >
> > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > >
> > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > >
> > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > >
> > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >
> > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> >
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> Partha Dasgupta
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