[Reader-list] gujrat election

Partha Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com
Fri Jan 4 10:38:59 IST 2008 

Hi,

That's great. However, it leaves an even bigger confusion as to which part
of Ahimoolam's response you found 'anti Hindu'.

Rgds, Partha
................

On Jan 4, 2008 10:35 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:

> Partha ,
>
> If some people have an interpretation of society , it may be termed as a
> personal view. I believe a Dalit is as much a Hindu as a Brahmin or a
> Kshytra is.And I believe that all those who lure poor with money to
> convert should be stopped as well.
>
> And me , though being a Brahmin by birth , never believed that I stood
> between a human and God. Neither were we taught so by our parents.
>
> Pawan
>
> On 1/4/08, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Pawan,
> >
> > Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead
> > and re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite
> > interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting.
> >
> > Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree
> > with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on
> > some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'.
> >
> > 1.  Sex education
> >      It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence
> > of blouses
> >      (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants
> > instead
> >      of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British
> > hangover for what
> >      they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there
> > are countless
> >      instances that will prove this to you.
> >
> > 2.  Reservations
> >      Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a
> > whole from
> >      the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact
> > that 'lower castes'
> >      are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may
> > be from birth,
> >      I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or
> > lower) than
> >      me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just
> > because
> >      some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are
> > automatically
> >      superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because
> > someone
> >      is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically
> > incapable.
> >      And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and
> > incapable)
> >      irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a
> > bad high caste
> >      ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't
> > the Indian Nation
> >      need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness?
> >
> > 3.  Foreign Investments
> >      The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The
> > bigger evil
> >      (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who
> > cheat the state and the
> >      law of this land and misuse public money / property - from
> > Nandigram to the Registrar
> >      of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is
> > subject to many
> >      regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look
> > at catching the
> >      people who are supposed to administrate it for public good.
> >
> >
> > 4.  Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the
> > British came
> >      into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on
> > Shiv Ratri in India.
> >      Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or
> > gender - it is purely
> >      a personal problem that can afflict anyone.
> >
> > I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which
> > I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu
> > (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right
> > to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me
> > what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think.  As
> > a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal
> > belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally
> > unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree
> > with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that
> > signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu')
> >
> > Rgds, Partha
> > ..........................
> >
> > On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Adhimoolan ,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are
> > > many who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It hurts
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > God Bless....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pawan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam <vadhimoolam at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >   I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing
> > > > that a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist
> > > > forces. The return of barbarism.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >
> > > > *From:* chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi <vrjogi at hotmail.com> ; reader-list at sarai.net
> > > >
> > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM
> > > >
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation
> > > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors,
> > > > Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children
> > > > - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has
> > > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly
> > > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the
> > > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and
> > > > girls around in the name freedom.
> > > >
> > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to
> > > > pieces, separating people from people.
> > > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians
> > > > at a ver fast pace
> > > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all
> > > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare
> > > > the nation as Islamic state
> > > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying
> > > > lands through local Muslims
> > > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions
> > > > are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms
> > > > are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex
> > > > educated children of careless parents.
> > > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously
> > > > marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is
> > > > they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism -
> > > > Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening
> > > > in both area.
> > > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign
> > > > countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do
> > > > not work for India
> > > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in
> > > > our own country.
> > > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when
> > > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to
> > > > achieve this nation as a group.
> > > >
> > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And
> > > > now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular
> > > > and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over.
> > > >
> > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk
> > > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as
> > > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not
> > > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have
> > > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news.
> > > >
> > > > Jai Hind,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > From: Vedavati Jogi <vrjogi at hotmail.com>
> > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country?
> > > > don't you stay in this country?
> > > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism?
> > > > are muslims 'bigger' than  country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com>
> > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com;
> > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re:
> > > > [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why
> > > > Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European
> > > > countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so
> > > > many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved >
> > > > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the
> > > > > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes >
> > > > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? >
> > > > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of
> > > > Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and
> > > > slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was
> > > > the order of the day and > Muslims had
> > > >  no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena
> > > > for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments.
> > > > How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai?
> > > > Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you
> > > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just
> > > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I
> > > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core
> > > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra
> > > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be
> > > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power?
> > > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of
> > > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya
> > > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi"
> > > >  <vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; <
> > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent:
> > > > Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat
> > > > election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if
> > > > you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to
> > > > pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well
> > > > but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never
> > > > understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots?
> > > > who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning
> > > > this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india,
> > > > given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by
> > > > hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to
> > > > build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if
> > > > you too are the sons of this soil,
> > > >  why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your
> > > > ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this
> > > > earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well
> > > > that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are
> > > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from
> > > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your
> > > > chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere
> > > > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for
> > > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then
> > > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform
> > > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields
> > > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never
> > > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this
> > > > 'false > >
> > > >  propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if
> > > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been
> > > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am
> > > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take
> > > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to
> > > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims
> > > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat
> > > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is
> > > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians &
> > > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if
> > > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation
> > > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try
> > > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date:
> > > > Tue, 25 Dec
> > > >  2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > >
> > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC:
> > > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear
> > > > Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks
> > > > about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not
> > > > equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take
> > > > stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt
> > > > muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left
> > > > after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and
> > > > when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day
> > > > you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is
> > > > your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or
> > > > voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who >
> > > > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in
> > > >  Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken
> > > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra
> > > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass
> > > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be
> > > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be
> > > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM,
> > > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india
> > > > is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of
> > > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had
> > > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after
> > > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter
> > > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too
> > > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave
> > > > reservations to bc, obcs, by
> > > >  reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs &
> > > > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from
> > > > muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain,
> > > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of
> > > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among
> > > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination,
> > > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of
> > > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't
> > > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not
> > > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including
> > > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims,
> > > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former
> > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this
> > > > secularism practised by
> > > >  congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus.
> > > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking
> > > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin
> > > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about
> > > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot
> > > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati>
> > > > >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From:
> > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat
> > > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >>
> > > > >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who
> > > > are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> >
> > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > >
> > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So,
> > > > when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won..
> > > >  in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has
> > > > yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when
> > > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single
> > > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> >
> > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word >
> > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever
> > > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not
> > > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the
> > > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > >
> > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.netthat all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it..
> > > > Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and
> > > > not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...>
> > > > >> > Don't you think
> > > >  that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > >
> > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > >
> > > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if
> > > > there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and
> > > > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran...
> > > > Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in
> > > > the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is
> > > > what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have
> > > > intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to
> > > > indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them
> > > > brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the
> > > > day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers..
> > > > the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism
> > > > would meet
> > > >  its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would
> > > > not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> >
> > > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected >
> > > > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe
> > > > Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > -----
> > > > Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To<bawazainab79 at gmail.com%3ETo>:
> > > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc<taraprakash at gmail.com%3ECc>:
> > > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent<vrjogi at hotmail.com%3ESent>:
> > > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat
> > > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a
> > > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for
> > > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the
> > > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not
> > > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for
> > > >  my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that
> > > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's
> > > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again,
> > > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On
> > > > Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com > wrote:> >
> > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > >
> > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> >
> > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani>
> > > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > >
> > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat >
> > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> >
> > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May >
> > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > >
> > > > next
> > > >  time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com
> > > > >> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent:
> > > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > >
> > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > >
> > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > >
> > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > >
> > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > >
> > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >
> > > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> >
> > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > >
> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > >
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> > --
> > Partha Dasgupta
> > +919...
>
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-- 
Partha Dasgupta
+919811047132

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